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Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

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Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#251

Post by 3pt14159 »

Kuraj wrote: post #143
3pt14159 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yikes I'm sorry. In my early twenties I'd jokingly do the "finger gun to the head" thing when I got a task I wasn't pleased about. Then my cousin died by suicide and, being my first encounter with suicide in the real world, it dawned on me that doing that in front of people was super, super not cool. I'll never know if I did that in front of someone that had lost a loved one to suicide via firearm.

I do that all the time and it never dawned on me until I read your comment. Thank you.

Thank you for the response. It's these small comments of personal reflection that make HN feel like a real place of community.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#252

Post by gumby »

andrewaylett wrote: post #246
gumby wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In medium/large companies, 99.9% of employees can be fired at the end of a HR process and that HR process is something only their line manager can start. True but note in the US this isn’t for the same reasons that happens in (for example) Europe. Big companies are better to sue than small companies (they have more money) and were you really fired because you never got any work done or because your manager simply d…

A personal improvement plan is not a fun thing to be on :(. That said, I do wonder how much the perception of them is skewed by their lack of visibility -- of the cases where I have been aware of a PIP, the only one which was had any real visibility in the wider org was the one where the person ended up leaving the company. It's entirely plausible that my employer is one of the better ones, though. And even then, I'v…

It’s important for the success of the individual that the PIP not be public.

I don’t know if you meant that or not so thought I’d mention it.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#253

Post by grillvogel »

jameshart wrote: post #142
ransom1538 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off topic. Do firings come out of the blue though? I was a VP for a while (not anymore) - but when the person I had to fire was about to get fired, they KNEW it as soon as the door opened. Firing someone is the worst experience ever - the only reason I had to fire someone was because WE screwed up in the interview process.

> Firing someone is the worst experience ever I mean... yeah, it sucks, but have you tried being fired ?

does being laid off count? i got laid off relatively early in my career and it worked out well for me. big severance for a nice month long vacation, found a new job in a few weeks and realized how underpaid i was, and learned to be jaded and cynical in all my interactions with a company from that point forward

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#254

Post by JohnFen »

somethoughts wrote: post #236
tailspin2019 wrote: post #4

No one told me this prior to becoming a manager, and I did make this mistake once and immediately regretted it. It seems like obvious advice, but the circumstances where this sort of thing could happen are described very well in the article. I revert to humour in awkward situations, like a lot of people, but I quickly realised that there are some things that you can’t joke about when in this position. Thankfully I do…

Coming from an individual contributor perspective and watching new managers/poor managers go off on tangents - two others that are advisable to avoid are: - Avoid all urges to make comparisons between your direct reports to your children no matter how relevant it may seem in your head - Avoid referring to your direct reports as cats that need to be herded at the start of every meeting

The advice I give is pretty much: treat people like the professionals that they are. If they don't live up to your standards, then correct that through training, dismissal, whatever. But always treat them like the professionals they are.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#255

Post by JohnFen »

ipnon wrote: post #177
tailspin2019 wrote: post #4

No one told me this prior to becoming a manager, and I did make this mistake once and immediately regretted it. It seems like obvious advice, but the circumstances where this sort of thing could happen are described very well in the article. I revert to humour in awkward situations, like a lot of people, but I quickly realised that there are some things that you can’t joke about when in this position. Thankfully I do…

You should be all business at work. It is your job after all. Work parties then become hilarious because all the humor is saved for special occasions.

A positive working environment where people can interact as humans do is the grease on the skids of productivity and creativity.

You can certainly have too much "party" in the office. But you can also not have enough.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#256

Post by namelosw »

peteradio wrote: post #215
namelosw wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a region parents would randomly say something like the following to their kids on daily basis and I hated it: - You’re eating too much and we can’t afford you, we will giving you to human traffickers for free. - If you go out and play before finishing the homework you will be eaten by wolves. - If you don’t obey the cops are going to arrest and execute you. - Stay away from dogs or it will bite your pp o…

Jesus, where did you grow up. Where I grew up we would make the first part of the joke but not the second. You are going to jail. Not "you are going to get shot in the head". Dogs biting dicks off?! America is too puritanical for that kind of imagery to fly.

Yeah, I should have guessed it sounds too much for fellow Americans. I'm sorry.

I grew up in Asia. I guess it's one of those cultural differences, like calling people "fatass" or drinking on the street without a shirt is not too inappropriate in some places. So people would have to shrug it off, try to adapt, and try to think those are just jokes without bad intentions. But still, it hurts and it does have life-long negative impacts on many people as far as I can see.

On top of that, I find people from better-educated families, or people from many other provinces in the same country don't share the same experience as us. My guess is economic and education status helps. From what I can see, the current generation of kids does receive substantially less abuse than say three decades ago.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#257

Post by bradlys »

3pt14159 wrote: post #250
bradlys wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many jokes we make everyday that are about dying or experiencing something unpleasant that it's not reasonable to put up such a barrier. You're basically saying, "NO JOKES!" You lost the statistical battle but most people will never encounter this scenario. We all encounter scenarios where we make a joke without knowing X person is going through that. You learn and adjust. For instance, I couldn't make j…

I'm not against dark humour, I think it's grand, actually, and helps us get through trouble. But I think there is a difference between someone putting up a sincere joke and someone in their twenties at the workplace. I'm not Mr. PC Police, but when I put myself in the shoes of someone else that may have lost a loved one in that manner it really shook me. Suicide isn't so rare that we should avoid making affordances w…

And cancer is even more common. Think about heart disease too. Yet, we joke all the time about shit giving us a heart attack or references to something being cancerous - etc.

You are seriously digging deep into the "NO JOKES!" stance. Just because you did a joke that didn't go over well doesn't mean you can't make any jokes anymore.

And to be clear - because this is the internet and everyone on HN wants to be a pedantic andy - I'm not saying you go make "Dark humor is like a child with cancer. It never gets old." type of jokes to parents who had children die of leukemia or some shit.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#258

Post by lrvick »

One of my favorite bosses joked about everything and was totally irreverent, even on topics of firing.

Everyone loved them because they did it with a candor that was always very obviously not serious it was disarming.

Given the nature of the work we did was very high risk, the disarming was welcome. Being fired was nowhere near the worst case outcome if we didn't do our jobs well, so joking about anything was fair game if it helped relieve some tension.

Be careful not to create environments where people have to add walking on eggshells to their already long list of difficult responsibilities.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#259

Post by 3pt14159 »

bradlys wrote: post #257
3pt14159 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not against dark humour, I think it's grand, actually, and helps us get through trouble. But I think there is a difference between someone putting up a sincere joke and someone in their twenties at the workplace. I'm not Mr. PC Police, but when I put myself in the shoes of someone else that may have lost a loved one in that manner it really shook me. Suicide isn't so rare that we should avoid making affordances w…

And cancer is even more common. Think about heart disease too. Yet, we joke all the time about shit giving us a heart attack or references to something being cancerous - etc. You are seriously digging deep into the "NO JOKES!" stance. Just because you did a joke that didn't go over well doesn't mean you can't make any jokes anymore. And to be clear - because this is the internet and everyone on HN wants to be a pedan…

I just think it's different. People at work shouldn't have to put up with jokes about suicide via gunshot whenever a dumb young kid doesn't like their marching orders for the week.

Re: Advice to New Managers: Don't Joke About Firing People (2020)

#260

Post by musicale »

Isn't joking about firing people (not to mention actually firing people) one of the most common ways that managers assert and reinforce their dominance in the social status hierarchy?

In most companies, managers' greatest power (besides controlling subordinates' movement, actions, privacy, and access to amenities such as light, heating/cooling, quiet environments, restrooms, etc.) is their largely unlimited power to simultaneously deprive subordinates of their livelihood, health insurance, social relationships, and social status.

Ed Zitron suggests that maintaining this social dominance and control over subordinates is typically the underlying (and primary) reason why managers want employees "back in the office":

https://ez.substack.com/p/the-work-from-home-future-is-destr...

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