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Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

economist.com

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Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#121
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC nuclear is cheaper than the batteries, if that’s the limit, but land use of PV is a bit of a red herring: it can scale up or down, fit in spaces other things don’t. Rooftops, waste land, mounted on top of road noise barriers… There’s no reason that I’m aware of not to cover the grounds of nuclear power plants in PV.

Some companies are buying up old farmland in California's central valley and turning them into solar farms. Seems like a great transition of land use, especially if water is going to be a continual problem over here.

Huh, I’d have assumed they’d do that in Nevada rather than in Central Valley. But yeah, it can go anywhere that’s otherwise unused.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#122
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also enormously expensive to construct and don't scale down. You can build a single wind turbine for what, $100K? Even a basic nuclear power plant is now around $50B, which is a large chunk of change to take away from taxpayers leaving even less money to research more renewable/sustainable alternatives. I do think that a better policy decision over the past 30 years would be to be more strict on building reg…

> You can build a single wind turbine for what, $100K? Even a basic nuclear power plant is now around $50B A modern wind turbine will typically feature a 20 years lifetime and cost a few million dollars to produce a handful of MWs. On the other hand, we see nuclear power plants happily going over 50 years of service while producing power in the magnitude of a few GWs -- and they do not cost $50B to build, but somewhe…

Nuclear is just as bad in terms of following demand the capacity factor is at best 90% but involves weeks of downtime for refueling etc. Worse the economics only work out when production is kept close to 100% when available limiting adoption in a wider electric grid. France dealt with sub 70% capacity factors even with massive exports that’s roughly a 0.9/0.7 = 30% price hike per kWh.

You can use batteries to level our wind but you really need multiple nuclear power plants operating in concert which gets you back into the 10’s of billion dollar range for dependable nuclear power. However, even that few billion dollars is still massively excessive for a small island. The European grid is large enough that the unit cost isn’t a big deal, but the minimal scale of nuclear still results in various inefficiencies from transmission losses etc.

A much larger problem is simply the cost per GWh, building nuclear today means estimating it’s still going to be cost competitive in 40 years which really doesn’t seem to be the case. Even back in 2000 people where looking at various long term estimates and the required subsidies to make Nuclear cost competitive didn’t seem worth it.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#123
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "why they're expensive" do you mean the plant itself, or the produced electricity? In any case Fukushima is easily explained: They ignored the risk of tsunami despite two studies (and governmental bodies) warning of it. The real reason the Fukushima is so damaging, is that the Japanese are seen as generally "competent", so their mistakes/hubris are seen as reproducible anywhere i.e. "if the Japanese coul…

Either, since the income should justify the investment: One wants nuclear plant operators to have plenty of income, so as not to be tempted to save on maintenance. I agree entirely with the hubris argument. And it's a harsh one, because if an organisation claims to be more competent than the Japanese and and safety-minded too, why can't it persuade an insurer to sell it liability insurance on normal commercial terms,…

> if an organisation claims to be more competent than the Japanese and and safety-minded too, why can't it persuade an insurer to sell it liability insurance on normal commercial terms, at a justifiable price?

It's because nobody else buys that amount of insurance. A hundred billion dollar insurance policy has significant risks and costs to the insurer completely independent of the actual risk of a claim.

For one thing, the insurer is required to hold enough capital to pay out possible claims no matter how unlikely they are. So you're basically paying interest on that sum of money in the difference between the ordinary market rate of return and the lower return on the "safe" securities insurers are allowed to hold. That cost is completely independent of the risk of a claim; it's strictly based on the amount of insurance you want.

Then what happens if there is e.g. a major earthquake which causes a minor incident at a nuclear plant, so that 99% of the damage is caused by the earthquake but the insurer is a deep pocket and the judge is sympathetic to the earthquake victims? That's a risk an insurer has to account for, but it's not a risk you can address by improving the safety of the nuclear plant because the risk is rooted in politics.

When the risk of an incident is low enough, it's costs like that which dominate the premium for the policy. You can make the risk of a legitimate claim arbitrarily small and those costs would still be the same.

And it's an isolated demand for rigor. Nobody else is required to carry that amount of insurance. When a coal mine turns an entire town into a superfund site and kills thousands of people, they just file for bankruptcy. What would the alternatives cost if they had to carry the same insurance, or pay for their externalities?

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#124
post #64
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, but when does it make sense to include plants that do not deliver reliable power? Wind power makes a lot of sense as long as you are still using fossil fuels. Every watt generated by wind power means that you can reduce fossil fuel, and thus lower your CO2 emissions. But once you got rid of fossil fuels and you have a reliable source of power without CO2 emissions, you can get rid of the unreliable ones.

Wind and solar are pretty cheap and storage keeps getting cheaper, that's why they make sense.

Batteries are so expensive that it is unclear whether they will ever solve the large scale storage problem: yes they're getting cheaper, but they have to continue to get cheaper for a long time before they're suitable, and it's unclear whether fundamental limits will be hit before that. If battery technology improves to the extent that it becomes viable for large scale storage, then wind and solar can become our main source of energy. Until then, nuclear is the only proven solution. Betting on batteries now amounts to gambling with the planet.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#125
post #6

Not building new nuclear power plants in the last 30 years was a major mistake, in terms of energy supply security as well as CO2 emissions.

They are also enormously expensive to construct and don't scale down. You can build a single wind turbine for what, $100K? Even a basic nuclear power plant is now around $50B, which is a large chunk of change to take away from taxpayers leaving even less money to research more renewable/sustainable alternatives. I do think that a better policy decision over the past 30 years would be to be more strict on building reg…

If you have gigawatt-sized gaps to fill in non-fossil generation, then it doesn't matter that something doesn't scale down, it's a problem if something doesn't scale up. It doesn't matter how much a single wind turbine costs, it matters how much a gigawatt of wind turbines costs and where you will place all of them.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#126
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Hydrogen can be stored underground for maybe $1/kWh of storage capacity. There would also be power related costs, but those don't matter nearly as much for rare event backup. Germany alone has the potential to store an estimated 9.6 PWh of hydrogen, enough to supply their average electric power demand for years, not weeks. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03603...

Creating hydrogen with excess power is really inefficient energy wise and also tips the scales of cost a lot.

If the energy is basically free which under certain circumstances (lots of wind) could happen, does it matter how inefficient it is?

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#127
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Hydrogen can be stored underground for maybe $1/kWh of storage capacity. There would also be power related costs, but those don't matter nearly as much for rare event backup. Germany alone has the potential to store an estimated 9.6 PWh of hydrogen, enough to supply their average electric power demand for years, not weeks. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03603...

Creating hydrogen with excess power is really inefficient energy wise and also tips the scales of cost a lot.

The creation of the hydrogen is only a portion of the overall system cost, which may total cheaper than alternatives.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#128
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French generation is ~70% nuclear (10% wind/solar) and German is ~10% (~40% wind/solar). Yet their prices track each other closely. So I think this explanation is too simplistic. Possibly there are large interconnects between the French and German grids levelling out wholesale prices, but my assumption is that they cannot carry enough power for this imagined scenario where nuclear makes a big difference.

> but my assumption is that they cannot carry enough power Right now ( https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/DE ), Germany is importing from France alone the equivalent of a bit under two French nuclear power plants at full power.

Might be, but in total Germany is a net exporter of electricity.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#129
post #89
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that's true, at least we would be betting on proven technology. What makes you think that unproven technology for storage can be built faster?

By the number of abandoned nuclear projects in the west, it’s not proven.

In this case 'proven' means was ever deployed at scale and worked successfully.

Nuclear has track record of decarbonizing entire industrial economy in just 10 years.

We dont have storage solution with such track record.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#130
post #14
post #6

Not building new nuclear power plants in the last 30 years was a major mistake, in terms of energy supply security as well as CO2 emissions.

But also in terms of cost? Nuclear power plants are not exactly cheap.

It was cheaper 30 years ago when we stopped building…
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