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Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

economist.com

111–120 of 435 posts

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#111
post #6

Not building new nuclear power plants in the last 30 years was a major mistake, in terms of energy supply security as well as CO2 emissions.

They are also enormously expensive to construct and don't scale down. You can build a single wind turbine for what, $100K? Even a basic nuclear power plant is now around $50B, which is a large chunk of change to take away from taxpayers leaving even less money to research more renewable/sustainable alternatives. I do think that a better policy decision over the past 30 years would be to be more strict on building reg…

> You can build a single wind turbine for what, $100K? Even a basic nuclear power plant is now around $50B

A modern wind turbine will typically feature a 20 years lifetime and cost a few million dollars to produce a handful of MWs.

On the other hand, we see nuclear power plants happily going over 50 years of service while producing power in the magnitude of a few GWs -- and they do not cost $50B to build, but somewhere in the ballpark of a few $B.

Taking the very very rough estimate of twice 1000 wind turbines vs. one nuclear power plant to produce a few GWs over half a century, we arrive at $2B for the wind turbines vs. e.g. $5B for the nuclear plants. Of course, this does not take into account the fact that the wind turbines must be supported by another power source for when there is no wind, that maintaining a nuclear plant is much more expensive than maintaining wind turbines, that 1000 WT require manifold more ground space than a NPP, etc.; but we are still very far away from $100K vs. $50B. And that is also without taking into account the commonly cited load factors of 0.25-0.4 for WTs vs. 0.85-0.95 for NPPs, which would require building at least twice as many WTs in locations complementary w.r.t. exposition to winds to be palliated.

Windmills can be very nifty ancillary power sources, but they do not hold a candle to NPPs in the context of a(n) (inter)national power grid.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#112
post #74
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes, but I'm a bit skeptical that nuclear is also cheaper.

IIRC nuclear is cheaper than the batteries, if that’s the limit, but land use of PV is a bit of a red herring: it can scale up or down, fit in spaces other things don’t. Rooftops, waste land, mounted on top of road noise barriers… There’s no reason that I’m aware of not to cover the grounds of nuclear power plants in PV.

Some companies are buying up old farmland in California's central valley and turning them into solar farms. Seems like a great transition of land use, especially if water is going to be a continual problem over here.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t make sense. Building new nuclear plants is among the most expensive forms of electricity generation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

Were those comparisons made with current prices for natural gas? Probably not.

Probably not, but the gas price is peaking for several, mostly temporal reasons. Especially if the overall gas usage drops due to more renewable electricity, the gas price will drop also.

But the real competition for nuclear energy shouldn't be gas (which is expensive even in better times), but renewables. We need much more of them.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#114
post #6

Not building new nuclear power plants in the last 30 years was a major mistake, in terms of energy supply security as well as CO2 emissions.

French generation is ~70% nuclear (10% wind/solar) and German is ~10% (~40% wind/solar). Yet their prices track each other closely. So I think this explanation is too simplistic. Possibly there are large interconnects between the French and German grids levelling out wholesale prices, but my assumption is that they cannot carry enough power for this imagined scenario where nuclear makes a big difference.

> but my assumption is that they cannot carry enough power

Right now (https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/DE), Germany is importing from France alone the equivalent of a bit under two French nuclear power plants at full power.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#115
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French generation is ~70% nuclear (10% wind/solar) and German is ~10% (~40% wind/solar). Yet their prices track each other closely. So I think this explanation is too simplistic. Possibly there are large interconnects between the French and German grids levelling out wholesale prices, but my assumption is that they cannot carry enough power for this imagined scenario where nuclear makes a big difference.

If you have interconnects, energy is fungible - just like oil or other commodities.

Electricity is only fungible on a second by second basis while ignoring transmission losses.

Local power production has a significant advantage. This gets offset when distant locations have significant geographic advantages like hydroelectric power or wind etc, or when peak production or demand varies between locations.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#117
post #6

Not building new nuclear power plants in the last 30 years was a major mistake, in terms of energy supply security as well as CO2 emissions.

French generation is ~70% nuclear (10% wind/solar) and German is ~10% (~40% wind/solar). Yet their prices track each other closely. So I think this explanation is too simplistic. Possibly there are large interconnects between the French and German grids levelling out wholesale prices, but my assumption is that they cannot carry enough power for this imagined scenario where nuclear makes a big difference.

There's no "French and German grids", most of EU is a single grid (see map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta...) and there's no meaningful difference between "interconnects" linking France and Germany and power lines within France, though there are a bit fewer of them than internal lines.

There are some limited interconnects linking continental EU with UK and Scandinavia with some trade happening over them.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#118
post #93
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do wonder how much our gas import from Russia is helping us keep the peace. And keeping Russians and their "dominion" oppressed. Just shows how morally bankrupt Europe is, and with how smug Europe is that is really cringey.

I want to upvote the first sentence, but the second is so pointlessly judgmental as to be pretty cringey itself.

As a non Europen living among Europeans, it's pretty hard to ignore the second part. Europe can't care less about any actual injustice that happens in the world.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#119
post #13
post #3

I do not quite understand why countries with large production such as France, which I remembered exported an interesting amount, seem to be hit severely (+50%). I thought they should have suffered less the unfortunate conjuncture.

Many many homes in Europe are natural gas fuelled. Combined with low-efficiency heating systems (no heat pumps), and bans on fracking (like here in the UK) means that countries have an over-dependence on a resource that they import and have no-or-low production of at home.

I'm not sure fracking is viable enough to make a difference in the UK.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#120
post #12
post #6

Not building new nuclear power plants in the last 30 years was a major mistake, in terms of energy supply security as well as CO2 emissions.

Or, if you want: Not building twice as many (wind/anything) was a major mistake. Nuclear power plants fail sometimes, just like the wind fails. In 2016 almost a third of the plants in France were offline at the same time, some for planned maintenance, some unplanned, and the peak prices were higher than now. All these things are fixable by overbuilding enough. There's nothing special or magic about nuclear.

Can't overbuilding also increase prices because all those plants have capital costs that have to be paid for whether they produce or not?
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