An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#271

Post by ipaddr » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 4:06 AM UTC

chitowneats wrote: post #243

civilized wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ivermectin is safe in humans, and it isn't difficult to find that out. I'm ignoring your speculation about me and plan to continue to do so, so let's not bore each other.

Ivermectin is safe. It's an anti-parasitic, not an anti-viral. Is it effective against covid? There are very smart people out there who have serious concerns with the primary study Ivermectin proponents point to showing effectiveness against this virus. In all fairness, my entire qualm with you is the way you've needlessly personalized this discussion. We could have discussed the issues at hand directly. Alas.

What I have never understood is if you don't want the vaccine because the long term studies are due in 2023 what subset of this group is pro Ivermectin? Ivermectin used on humans is a new area with fewer studies.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#272

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 4:10 AM UTC

memling wrote: post #186

advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. The Law always provokes its opposite.

It happens occasionally, but rarely.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#273

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 4:12 AM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #229

advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

Everyone's a reactionary.

It's an important statement, but because it's the self-justifying propaganda of reactionaries. People work together and get things done; I see it all the time; in fact, that's how democracies - by far the most successful form of government in human history - that's how they work.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#274

Post by ipaddr » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 4:31 AM UTC

giantrobot wrote: post #202

armchairhacker wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. It just doesn't excuse some liberals from encouraging this left/right divide and just being nasty. Things like r/HermanCainAward, being proud when vaccine deniers get sick. At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misi…

> At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misinformed. I think you'll find most "liberals" are pretty understanding that militant anti-vaxxers are delusional and misinformed. The issue is less with their delusion and more with the militancy of their delusion and the societal consequences. If the militant anti-vaxxers instead…

I'm pro lockdown. Vaccines are a red herring and relying on them is ignoring science over profit.

When we know vaccines still put people at risk why are we not locking everyone down and closing borders?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#275

Post by Mountain_Skies » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 4:52 AM UTC

nradov wrote: post #208

int_19h wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-American who lives in US these days, I can assure you that there's nothing unique about the Americans' ability to hate each other. In terms of literally killing people over that, you guys are definitely far behind.

More Americans should visit the Balkans and learn the regional history. It's a beautiful area, and gives some perspective on the universal human capacity for irrational hatred. What I've never understood is how people can get so outraged over even minor political differences. If someone agrees with you 80% then that's an ally, not an enemy.

Intersectionality. 100% agreement and compliance is required. Anything less might as well be 0%.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#276

Post by Mountain_Skies » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 5:00 AM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #271

chitowneats wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ivermectin is safe. It's an anti-parasitic, not an anti-viral. Is it effective against covid? There are very smart people out there who have serious concerns with the primary study Ivermectin proponents point to showing effectiveness against this virus. In all fairness, my entire qualm with you is the way you've needlessly personalized this discussion. We could have discussed the issues at hand directly. Alas.

What I have never understood is if you don't want the vaccine because the long term studies are due in 2023 what subset of this group is pro Ivermectin? Ivermectin used on humans is a new area with fewer studies.

No. Ivermectin use is humans is very well understood and has been for quite some time. What isn't well understood is what is the level of effectiveness of Ivermectin in preventing the spread of covid and treating the symptoms of the disease. It's an absolutely ridiculous statement to say Ivermectin in humans is not well studied. Whoever told you that had an agenda and you should be very skeptical of anything else they tell you. There is no equivalence in uncertainty between Ivermectin and the mRNA covid treatments.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#277

Post by Mountain_Skies » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 5:05 AM UTC

ianleeclark wrote: post #125

advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I've long thought the best way of reaching 100% vaccination in the US was to have competing Democrat and Republican vaccines. Democrats could don a dashiki and say one thing while Republicans could put up a crack smoking pillow salesman to say another.

Doubtful. Democrats pushing for vaccines haven't been effective in getting their most reliable voting block, communities of color, to take the vaccine. Trump has been imploring his supporters to take the vaccines but they're the other large group that makes up the unvaccinated. There are groups that blindly follow whatever their partisan leaders tell them but neither party has very good control over their voters when it comes to vaccination. The media certainly would like you to think it's a partisan issue but it's only one if you ignore either of the two largest groups of unvaccinated.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#278

Post by iammisc » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 5:07 AM UTC

epakai wrote: post #254

iammisc wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only people who think Trump was the source of the division are out-of-touch liberals. I don't even mean this pejoratively. I just encourage you to look beyond the current predominant media narratives. This society has been breaking apart for a while. All the signs have been there. Trump shocked the liberals, but Obama shocked the conservatives before him, and we can ping pong back and forth for a while I'm sure.…

Obama wasn't that shocking. There was just a massive outrage factory attacking him. There are controversial things the Obama administration did, but the outrage wasn't commensurate.

Obama's association with Ayers, his pastors sermons while Obama sat through them, his derision for people clinging to guns and religion were all things very reasonable people could be upset by. You are being purposefully selective in your remembrances.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#279

Post by iammisc » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 5:09 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #273

iammisc wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone's a reactionary.

It's an important statement, but because it's the self-justifying propaganda of reactionaries. People work together and get things done; I see it all the time; in fact, that's how democracies - by far the most successful form of government in human history - that's how they work.

How could you possibly say democracy is the most successful government system in history? There is little reason to believe that. These sorts of kitschy phrases being substituted for real discourse is why were here.

Democracy is nice, but historically it leads to very bad outcomes in a few hundred years. What remains to be seen is whether or not this democracy will sustain itself.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#280

Post by philliphaydon » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 5:20 AM UTC

dogsboywonder wrote: post #18

The amount of censorship, especially among the qualified scientific community in just about every facet of this disease is alarming. Even if the origins were accidental or lab-born or whatnot, the response has been so politicized worldwide that pure science has been largely thrown out the window. Every possibility should be analyzed & tested, even if it goes against the interests of a ruling party and all parties are…

> the response has been so politicized worldwide that pure science has been largely thrown out the window. Every possibility should be analyzed & tested, even if it goes against the interests of a ruling party and all parties are guilty of exploiting this.

This has been the case since Global Warming was coined, then the models didn't line up so they called it Climate Change and castrated anyone who questioned the science.