Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves... • Hacker News Board

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#11

Post by Xlythe » Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 4:37 AM UTC

realize wrote: post #8

InclinedPlane wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automation. Does NOT. Destroy. Jobs. Is the economy smaller today than in 1911? Are there fewer jobs today? Are there less worthwhile jobs today? Exactly the opposite in every case. Automation may eliminate A job in the near-term but in the long-term it creates and enhances wealth. Ultimately every dollar spent makes its way from one person to another person. Robots don't have bank accounts.

Can you imagine a future where most of the menial and factory tasks that are now jobs are performed by robots? In this case it certainly does eliminate jobs, with no guarantee that others will be created. The wealth created goes to the company that made the robot, and the one that utilizes the robot. The people who used to have jobs get left out of the wealth transfer. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, just tha…

Job creation for the sake of jobs is wasteful. And these are crummy jobs being replaced by robots; just look at the suicide rates. Regardless, robots still need to be maintained, they increase energy consumption, and they lower costs. Workers will be needed. Just elsewhere.

The wealth goes to the people creating the robots and the people maintaining the robots.

Automation is a great thing. I'm still waiting for an economic model to be put into place where (decent) food, shelter, and health insurance are provided free of cost because of automation. The necessity of having a job is so ingrained into our culture, I want to see what it'd be like when it's entirely optional.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#12

Post by natrius » Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 4:38 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #10

realize wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine a future where most of the menial and factory tasks that are now jobs are performed by robots? In this case it certainly does eliminate jobs, with no guarantee that others will be created. The wealth created goes to the company that made the robot, and the one that utilizes the robot. The people who used to have jobs get left out of the wealth transfer. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, just tha…

Companies become more dependent on automation in order to increase efficiency. In the near-term this leads to higher profits. However, because automation reduces overhead, competition will result in lower prices. The end result is that increased profits are only temporary, ultimately the main result is merely cheaper goods. And cheaper goods mean increased amounts of discretionary income. That money ultimately goes e…

I can imagine a future in which robots are cheaper and more capable than a broad swath of humanity at everything. Jobs will be lost.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#13

Post by pilgrim689 » Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 4:39 AM UTC

Rodney Brooks stressed how the first nation that embraces new robot technology in their industries will have huge economic advantages over other nations. (he's a highly influential roboticist, MIT AI researcher, co-founder of the company that makes the Roomba and other robots (military mostly)).

He stated in a conference (2009) that for robots to be successful in manufacturing, they needed :

1- object recognition skill of a 2 year old child

2- language capability of a 4 year old

3- manual dexterity of a 6 year old

4- social understanding of an 8 year old

I guess Foxconn is eyeing robots that are close to reaching those numbers.

ref. : conference I mentionned: http://fora.tv/2009/05/30/Rodney_Brooks_Remaking_Manufacturi...

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#14

Post by DannoHung » Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 4:49 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #10

realize wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine a future where most of the menial and factory tasks that are now jobs are performed by robots? In this case it certainly does eliminate jobs, with no guarantee that others will be created. The wealth created goes to the company that made the robot, and the one that utilizes the robot. The people who used to have jobs get left out of the wealth transfer. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, just tha…

Companies become more dependent on automation in order to increase efficiency. In the near-term this leads to higher profits. However, because automation reduces overhead, competition will result in lower prices. The end result is that increased profits are only temporary, ultimately the main result is merely cheaper goods. And cheaper goods mean increased amounts of discretionary income. That money ultimately goes e…

This is assuming that there is no price collusion and that capital costs of market entry are generally negligible.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#15

Post by forensic » Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 4:51 AM UTC

This debate isn't about jobs.

The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers?

Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority.

Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education.

Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do not believe in free education or social services.

When the bottom 50% of society finally ends up with no money, no marketable skills, and no military prowess, what is going to happen to them?

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#16

Post by DannoHung » Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 4:58 AM UTC

I know that the suggestion that these are going to eliminate human positions is an unpopular sentiment here at HN because economics. However, are we really so sure that there will always be a human labor demand to effectively meet the human labor supply?

What do we do when there is an excess of human labor? Everyone here is opposed to make work for good reason. But a suggestion that solves the moral issue of what to do with an unemployed human who is not contributing due to a lack of labor demand has not been proposed in the general case. It is typically waved away by saying, "There will be a new industry." But can we really not imagine that this new industry will remain un-automated for long? What about the new industry that begins by being automated?

I am not opposed to automation in the slightest. I think that if we can automate every task in the world, that would be the best thing. If anything I am just opposed to insisting that as technology changes, we must maintain the same social values and behaviors.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#17

Post by Hawramani » Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 5:03 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #6

geogra4 wrote: post #4

So where will the low wage jobs run to? Perhaps African nations will pick up the slack. What happens to the unemployed chinese laborers then? Marx is still relevant after all these years....

Automation. Does NOT. Destroy. Jobs. Is the economy smaller today than in 1911? Are there fewer jobs today? Are there less worthwhile jobs today? Exactly the opposite in every case. Automation may eliminate A job in the near-term but in the long-term it creates and enhances wealth. Ultimately every dollar spent makes its way from one person to another person. Robots don't have bank accounts.

Building on Donald Knuth's definition of an artist (someone who does work that cannot yet be automated, such as a programmer), it seems like today the most efficient economy is one that automates everything that can be automated, so that all of its population work as artists.

The argument that automation destroys jobs assumes that at least part of the population does not have the propensity to be artists. This is the crucial point that this whole debate rests on.

In other words, are there people who are so un-creative that everything they could produce can be automated? If there are, then such people will lose jobs due to automation and will not gain back any alternative jobs.

I think on a site like HN the debate is skewed because most of us are high IQ people who, so far, don't have any trouble competing with robots. If there were robots who could do everything I can do and do it cheaper than I, why would anybody hire me?

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#18

Post by natfriedman » Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 5:04 AM UTC

At Foxconn in the last five years there have been 17 reported suicides out of ~1 million workers. The US rate in 2007 was, according to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, 11.5 suicides per 100,000 people, or ~35x higher than the Foxconn rate.

Foxconners are not unusually predisposed to kill themselves. It's a jingoistic myth.

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#19

Post by zizee » Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 5:13 AM UTC

forensic wrote: post #15

This debate isn't about jobs. The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers? Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority. Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education. Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do no…

When it eventually happens, society will have to change.

viva la revolution baby!

Re: Robots Don't Complain or Demand Higher Wages or Kill Themselves...

#20

Post by felipemnoa » Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 5:20 AM UTC

zizee wrote: post #19

forensic wrote: post #15

This debate isn't about jobs. The question is this: will the powerful still value human life when robots are better than manual workers? Wealth keeps concentrating in the hands of a small minority. Unskilled workers increasingly look like nothing but a drain on resources, unable to produce anything valuable or afford education. Many many billionaires have little respect for unskilled human life and libertarians do no…

When it eventually happens, society will have to change. viva la revolution baby!

This. You do not want to have too many poor people or somebody will take advantage of this and use them to overthrow whomever is in power and put himself in power.