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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#101

Post by ISL »

motohagiography wrote: post #99

Working closely to the issue on a couple of fronts, I think debate about the disease origin is a distraction from the real debate everyone has a stake in, which has been the policy response and the legitimacy of lockdowns, vax passports, mandates for health status disclosure, and discrimination based on health information. Who cares if it came from a lab, there are zero consequences to anyone whether it did or not, a…

The origin matters for two major reasons:

1) So we can learn and mitigate the risks of something similar happening again.

and

2) In the event that the virus was leaked from a laboratory, the world would like to send the lab a small invoice for costs incurred and damages.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#102

Post by void_mint »

motohagiography wrote: post #99

Working closely to the issue on a couple of fronts, I think debate about the disease origin is a distraction from the real debate everyone has a stake in, which has been the policy response and the legitimacy of lockdowns, vax passports, mandates for health status disclosure, and discrimination based on health information. Who cares if it came from a lab, there are zero consequences to anyone whether it did or not, a…

This exactly. Millions of people are dying and this post as well as various politicians are in the midst of the children's argument "He started it!"

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#103

Post by clairity »

motohagiography wrote: post #99

Working closely to the issue on a couple of fronts, I think debate about the disease origin is a distraction from the real debate everyone has a stake in, which has been the policy response and the legitimacy of lockdowns, vax passports, mandates for health status disclosure, and discrimination based on health information. Who cares if it came from a lab, there are zero consequences to anyone whether it did or not, a…

absolutely. the likelihood we'll find absolute proof on the origin is about zero, and even if we did, it'd affect research, policy, and mediopolitical decisions about zero. it's another salvo in the 'culture wars' that zealous surrogates are waging to distract us from important issues like ever greater consolidation of sociopolitical power and economic resources.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#104

Post by nradov »

devwastaken wrote: post #89

"In addition, the international research community has no access to the sites, samples, or raw data." The reason lab leak is considered a conspiracy theory, is because it's a literal conspiracy theory. The conspiracy being the CCP and potentially U.S. covering up a virus leak from their lab. Of course all sorts of other politics and disinformation get attached. Nobody has the evidence necessary to make evidence based…

The US federal government still officially considers a lab leak as a possibility. If it were ever proven then sanctions against China would be likely.

https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/reports-publications/...

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#105

Post by birken »

void_mint wrote: post #100
advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. We're living in very different worlds I guess.

Yes, don't you remember the early days of the pandemic when Donald Trump was very pro-mask, including regularly wearing a mask himself, and then only when the liberal started moralizing he turned anti-mask?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#106

Post by clairity »

Torwald wrote: post #76
simonh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything + Politics = Politics

religion + politics = religion (?) eg. Aztec empire edit: the Aztec empire is an example for this. The religion was politically enforced and thus the political system became part of the religion. So the question is, isn't religion a case that refutes the parent's hypothessis.

religion is a way to coalesce and exert power on large groups of people. religion is politics.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#107

Post by motohagiography »

ISL wrote: post #101
motohagiography wrote: post #99

Working closely to the issue on a couple of fronts, I think debate about the disease origin is a distraction from the real debate everyone has a stake in, which has been the policy response and the legitimacy of lockdowns, vax passports, mandates for health status disclosure, and discrimination based on health information. Who cares if it came from a lab, there are zero consequences to anyone whether it did or not, a…

The origin matters for two major reasons: 1) So we can learn and mitigate the risks of something similar happening again. and 2) In the event that the virus was leaked from a laboratory, the world would like to send the lab a small invoice for costs incurred and damages.

So literally, nothing different. Labs are all hypersensitive about their processes right now, so they're doing 1) already, and the recipient of that invoice is the US NIH, or the CCP, neither of whom have either the willingness or ability to pay.

It's window dressing, and I'm becoming even more suspicious that the disease origin is just another managed narrative, as everybody who believes it came from a lab believed it last year, and nobody who rejected the lab leak view last year is going to have their mind changed to where they accept institutions they believe in are culpable.

It's an issue designed to politically neutralize people, so that we will be just like people arguing about jet fuel burning temperatures on the internet instead of confronting our governments about surveillance and state overreach and the patriot act. The whole so-called "debate" is a honeypot tarpit for useful idiots.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#108

Post by nradov »

I would encourage everyone interested in the virus origins to read the US DNI Unclassified Summary of Assessment on COVID-19 Origins. While it's inherently somewhat politicized it contains a good, readable summary of the origin hypotheses and evidence.

https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/reports-publications/...

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#109

Post by TheCowboy »

The best piece that one can read on the origin of covid is by Zeynep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.h...

I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. It can also serve as a warning against authoritarian models of rule.

My criticism doesn't mean I think we shouldn't investigate the origins either. It is in the world's public interest to err on the side of knowing too much so that maybe the chance of this happening again is reduced.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#110

Post by tomohawk »

motohagiography wrote: post #99

Working closely to the issue on a couple of fronts, I think debate about the disease origin is a distraction from the real debate everyone has a stake in, which has been the policy response and the legitimacy of lockdowns, vax passports, mandates for health status disclosure, and discrimination based on health information. Who cares if it came from a lab, there are zero consequences to anyone whether it did or not, a…

The worldwide community is large. We can do many things all at the same time. Investigating the source is not a distraction.

We now have documentary evidence that Fauci authorized money to be channeled through various organizations to labs in Wuhan. These documents also link people involved with this activity to the very same people who assured us through letters to a highly respected journal that the lab leak theory was completely wrong.

This brings to mind many questions, but do people act like this when they are not covering things up? This bears investigating.

It's unlikely that the people investigating will be the same ones developing new drugs or treatments for covid.

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