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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#71
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose a better question in that case would be: is it possible to engineer something like SARS-CoV-2 in a lab (perhaps via existing GOF techniques) if it were one's explicit intent to cause a damaging pandemic? That's a more important question about whether or not this particular virus came out of a lab or not, because, if the answer to the above is "yes", then we need to take whatever your/whoever's proposed miti…

Your argument is that we should take very stringent preventative measures whether or not COVID leaked from a lab. While I agree with that, what this misses is that knowledge of if and how the virus escaped is valuable knowledge that helps us by showing us where the flaws in our current processes are. Flight safety is a fitting analogy. You need to analyze exactly why a plane crashed so that you can see the gaps in cu…

How is it valuable?

If it could be made in a lab and released (intentionally or accidentally), another could be made in a lab and released (intentionally), and our strategy should be exactly the same even if SARS-CoV-2 is of entirely natural origin, as the entire planet now knows the destructive value of this class of bioweapons (if constructing such artificially is within our technology).

The US ban on GOF research suggests that it is believed to be technically feasible to achieve this. This means we must proceed strategically as a species as if the lab leak hypothesis were true, because over time the probability of an intentional lab leak approaches 1. The origin of this particular pandemic remains irrelevant in that case.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#72
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour. Just playing the devil's advocate here, but, I'd argue that it makes quite a lot of sense from a biological warfare perspective in terms of intelligence gathering on how different societies and countries behave against such a threat. In particular, the pandemic has brought to the surface the how larg…

If that indeed was a master plan then Id argue it backfired massively, that information is not worth the losses and the risks, and is exactly why modern armies don't deploy biological or chemical weapons or zeppelins (because they are hard to control and are not effective against armies).

Could you expand why it backfired massively?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#73
post #3

We live in interesting times, where "conspiracy theories" become true after about 6 months. The reality of the situation is that people who actually pay attention, not the ones who constantly watch the TV news narrative, have been able to not only understand the true origin of covid, but also predict the entire chain of events that has occurred as a consequence. When will the general public stop seeing conspiracy the…

Please give us a list of the 100% accurate conspiracy theories for COVID.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#74
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that indeed was a master plan then Id argue it backfired massively, that information is not worth the losses and the risks, and is exactly why modern armies don't deploy biological or chemical weapons or zeppelins (because they are hard to control and are not effective against armies).

Could you expand why it backfired massively?

I did in the next part of the sentence, because the cost of that information was too big, even for China

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#75
post #69
post #17

It's well known that local Chinese authorities silenced a doctor (Li Wenliang) who was giving early warnings about the virus. That to me is a more grave mistake than an accidental lab leak, because they lost a chance to nip it in the bud. Accidents happen and quick response is essential. An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour.

While silencing Li was appalling, in practice it probably didn’t slow down recognition and escalation of the issue much as there were other doctors already aware of it and raising the alarm. Wuhan CDC had been alerted on 27th December, and the WHO had been told there was a pneumonia cluster of unknown origin on 31st December, 3 days before Li was strong armed. All the instances of messing up found so far were incompe…

But probably the best thing that happened early WAS free flow on information from China, they sequenced the genome early and released it to everyone, that put the mRNA vaccines on a fast track ...

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#76
post #64
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone mentioned on Twitter: "When you mix Science with Politics you end up with Politics"

Anything + Politics = Politics

religion + politics = religion (?) eg. Aztec empire

edit: the Aztec empire is an example for this. The religion was politically enforced and thus the political system became part of the religion.

So the question is, isn't religion a case that refutes the parent's hypothessis.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#77
post #17

It's well known that local Chinese authorities silenced a doctor (Li Wenliang) who was giving early warnings about the virus. That to me is a more grave mistake than an accidental lab leak, because they lost a chance to nip it in the bud. Accidents happen and quick response is essential. An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour.

> An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour. Just playing the devil's advocate here, but, I'd argue that it makes quite a lot of sense from a biological warfare perspective in terms of intelligence gathering on how different societies and countries behave against such a threat. In particular, the pandemic has brought to the surface the how larg…

Or COVID was leaked into the public in China by an actor other than China.

China figured it out and unleashed a global pandemic by opening the borders to not be a victim of day the CIA.

It’s possible it’s intentionally leaked but not by China

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#78
post #17

It's well known that local Chinese authorities silenced a doctor (Li Wenliang) who was giving early warnings about the virus. That to me is a more grave mistake than an accidental lab leak, because they lost a chance to nip it in the bud. Accidents happen and quick response is essential. An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour.

> An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Its like starting a fire in your house to spite your neighbour

But isn’t this precisely the strawman argument that’s effectively destroyed rational discussion about the lab-leak scenario?

As far as I know, absolutely no rational scientist has suggested the intentional ‘bio-weapon’ release of the virus on China’s own population as a realistic scenario, in any way.

But I’ve found whenever discussing an accidental leak with people who oppose it, they almost invariably use this as their main argument rejecting it: “why would the Chinese use this weapon against themselves?”

It seems just another example of the debate being clouded by a politicization that isn’t even there.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#79
post #16
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far, I agree. Nothing has been able to show microchips in the vaccines. If its there, it's using technology that is so far ahead of what's in the general domain that it's undetectable. It doesn't seem plausible at all.

Also, why? What gain would come from putting little computers into people's blood? If it's for some sort of behavioral tracking, it seems like a lot of effort considering everyone is already carrying a computer in their pocket. I guess I also would like to know why Bill Gates has become such a target for conspiracy theorists lately? My impression has been that he's pretty sincerely involved in improving conditions in…

> I guess I also would like to know why Bill Gates has become such a target for conspiracy theorists lately?

He has been warning about this pandemic and has been pushing vaccines. I don't know his motives but the conspiracy theorist narrative is that it's to control population growth, sterilize poorer people etc.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#80
post #3

We live in interesting times, where "conspiracy theories" become true after about 6 months. The reality of the situation is that people who actually pay attention, not the ones who constantly watch the TV news narrative, have been able to not only understand the true origin of covid, but also predict the entire chain of events that has occurred as a consequence. When will the general public stop seeing conspiracy the…

Psychology experiments into conformity show, conclusively, that the vast majority of people will unconsciously distort (to varying degrees) their own perception of reality to fit a prevailing orthodoxy, or 'narrative'. In many contexts many are, in a sense, incapable of unorthodox thinking.

Personally I find this research quite depressing, but revealing about the current environment, since it seems to be getting worse. argumentum ad populum defines the truth since any fact is so easily 'fact-checked' in to oblivion.

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