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6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

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Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#141

Post by vimy »

berdario wrote: post #129
cwp wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's not like nobody has ever thought of that before. The best we've been able to do is deterrence, which requires developing advanced weapons like aircraft carriers, stealth fighters and nukes. I know this isn't what you had in mind, but the world is about to find out what it's like to not have superpowers interfering in their affairs. The US doesn't really have any need for troops abroad: the Cold War is over…

Yankees truly defy parody... > there are going to be a lot more disruptions without the US military to stabilize things Or, you know... there are going to be a lot fewer disruptions without the US military to destabilize things

The US navy patrolling the oceans for the last 70 years was one prerequisite for globalization, and thus the world’s current level wealth, to happen. There used to be a lot more piracy or rogue states intercepting cargo.

To deny the positive effect Pax Americana had on the world is denying history. Doesn’t mean it was all roses and sunshine but better than what came before.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#142

Post by VortexDream »

fergal_reid wrote: post #124
wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

>How much does peace cost? > Has anybody ever costed it? Depends on what you mean by 'tools' but I would say the Marshall plan, roughly $100B in today's money, would be a good example of this. Explicit investment to rebuild Europe after WW2. Some say this was because they learned it worked out badly to leave Germany broke and broken after WW1 (fertile ground for facism). Others might say it was because a prosperous E…

The only reason why the Marshall plan worked is because there was a world war and nearly everybody in Europe decided "not again". Other countries have not made this experience and for them military conflict (or threat of conflict) is still a valid and legitimate way to protect their interests and expand their sphere of influence (see China and the South China sea). What worked in one place will not necessarily work elsewhere.

In fact, I think it's already proven to not have worked in the case of China. Despite the amount of money flowing into the country over the past 2 decades, their ambition and their tension with their neighbors have only grown. They're on their way to becoming a military superpower as well.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#143

Post by scns »

dotancohen wrote: post #133
wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

> I know there is no handbook for peace What does peace look like to you? Do people just stop fighting and start loving their neighbours? You mentioned Jerusalem. I'm Israeli, so I'm biased towards one side of the Jerusalem story but let me try to frame the other side of the story as to not play my biases. I probably won't be accurate because my propaganda is different from their propaganda. And I won't reply because…

Thank you for your perspective. One tip though, stop assuming a flamewar (which the awesome mods [shoutout to @dang, you rock!] would smother respectfully) this site is known and cherished for its' civilized discourse.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#144

Post by GDC7 »

snicker7 wrote: post #57
wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

The last 70 or so years have been the most peaceful in human history. How? The American military and economic hegemony. If you want peace, build more aircraft carriers.

> If you want peace, build more aircraft carriers

If you want peace, you should build less aircraft carriers and be more pragmatic about immigration.

People around the world are all for the Pax Americana, but only as long as they are granted a shot at the American dream too.

Many people in the US are just banking on the luck of being born within the invisible borders. People elsewhere will resent the US and the entire concept of Pax Americana when they see objectively dumb people having net worths in the 7 figures just because a rising American tide lifts all the American boats while at the same time the Government raises barriers to entry to make it harder for much more worthy would be boat owners to get access to such prosperity.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#145

Post by janto »

swarnie wrote: post #84
toxik wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are surely aware that there were FAR more wars before this. War was basically just a fact of life for most people in most of our settled past.

There have been other periods of global peace caused by domination of a single power, no one else argues that it was a good thing for everyone else involved. I could try and argue India is now a better place because the period know as Pax Britannica almost gave them the toilet but you'd rightly consider me a mad man. Do you think any of the places listed above were improved by being turned in to weapon testing ranges…

https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace

"This entry presents an empirical perspective on the history of war and peace. We also published a data visualization history of human violence here on OurWorldInData.org which presents empirical data showing that we are now living in the most peaceful time in our species’ existence."

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#146

Post by imtringued »

snicker7 wrote: post #57
wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

The last 70 or so years have been the most peaceful in human history. How? The American military and economic hegemony. If you want peace, build more aircraft carriers.

No, it's because after losing WW1 the losers thought they were still being oppressed so they started a new world war.

Germany is pretty much the go to case. They lost WW1, then the American hegemony financially repressed Germany through external debt so they had a pretty good reason to start a new war.

The death of the idea that power and suppression leads to peace is what has stopped world war 3. When WW2 ended, USA immediately turned Germany into an ally and economically supported it as much as it could with the Marshal Plan. It wasn't the aircraft carrier that brought peace, it was cooperation.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#147

Post by scoopertrooper »

achow wrote: post #138
scoopertrooper wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will that be enough for them to embrace no public transportation on Saturdays, even though their culture would have it be Fridays? Crazy idea. Jews drive/catch public transportation on Fridays, muslims drive/catch transportation on Saturdays, and the rest of us ride around everyday of the week, because in what world is any of this a good idea?

In the world where transportation staff does not need atleast 1d/week day off.

Crazy idea, some employees take certain days off while others take different days off.

You know, like how every other critical industry operates operates, and how public transportation works in countries that don't shut it down once a week.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#148

Post by indymike »

LatteLazy wrote: post #92
dimitar wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Si vis pacem, para bellum Military budgets are peace spending. Wars begin when politicians think they can achieve goals easily using arms - see Germany's plans in the World Wars, Saddam's invasion of Iran, Russia's invasion of Ukraine after the 2013 revolution or most wars really. Having strong armed forces and military alliances are an insurance policy against being invaded.

There isn't a linear relationship here. If our militaries were 50% weaker, we'd have thought twice before iraq 2 and we wouldn't be rattling the sabre at iran would we? So right now, for the US and allies, more preparing for war means more (pointless, wasteful) wars...

Taiwan would be gone, Korea unified under Kim Jong Un. The soviet union would not have fallen. The world would be radically different.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#149

Post by EMM_386 »

wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

> How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it?

In the end these are jobs programs, as you mention the infamous "military industrial complex". They become part of a nation's economic engine.

The media will fret about deficit spending, healthcare, "socialists", inflation etc. when in reality there are bodies charged with ensuring that all remains sane .... at least on the monetary side (in the US, the Federal Reserve).

Nobody needs a new fighter jet or submarine when a few nations have enough weapons to obliterate civilization 50 times over.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#150

Post by EMM_386 »

dotancohen wrote: post #133
wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

> I know there is no handbook for peace What does peace look like to you? Do people just stop fighting and start loving their neighbours? You mentioned Jerusalem. I'm Israeli, so I'm biased towards one side of the Jerusalem story but let me try to frame the other side of the story as to not play my biases. I probably won't be accurate because my propaganda is different from their propaganda. And I won't reply because…

> What does peace look like to you? Do people just stop fighting and start loving their neighbours?

It would look a lot more like regional conflicts without $1 billion each fighter jets.

Iron Dome, drones and other technology prove this can be handled regionally without the need for a single advanced fighter jet, ballistic missile submarine, or any of these other frankly absurd expenditures.

The work force dedicated to these (admittedly very impressive) weapons of war would have to focus their skills elsewhere.

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