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Just the Facts: S&P's $2 Trillion Mistake

treasury.gov

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Re: Just the Facts: S&P's $2 Trillion Mistake

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our tax burdens are not the lowest by any means. My total tax rate partially due to living in California (although it is mostly Federal) is ~40%. There are plenty of countries in Europe that would be happy to tax me less. My buddy in Singapore pays about 8% all told and he's in the same income range. The temptation to become an expat gets stronger as I earn more money. My sin is not being a fat cat living off capital…

Singapore's not quite the oasis you make it out to be. Have a look at how much it will cost you for a car once you get over there.

I've been there, thanks for assuming, and I also know how much a car costs.

You don't need a car there, it's a petty way to show off. Taxis are absurdly cheap in Singapore. gothere.sg is a great site for getting places too.

Re: Just the Facts: S&P's $2 Trillion Mistake

#122
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate to just post a +1, me too, but this, it seems, just isn't be said or recognized enough. The US, with one of the lowest tax burdens in the western world ( the lowest?) can easily afford to pay down it's debts but without any support for raising taxes in the slightest, not just amongst republicans but from what it seems are a vocal and loud minority (majority?) of Americans, no one can really act surprised by S&P'…

It isn't our current debts that have people concerned. It's the combination of current debts and unsustainable future obligations, which are so large that they in fact can't be paid down by just raising taxes. Barring an adjustment in what they are, they grow to the point that they eventually consume 100% of the economy in something like 40 years in conjunction with interest payments, but of course they become comple…

The US health care system is clearly on an unsustainable path. But the reason is that it's grotesquely inefficient compared to other health care systems. Some European health care systems cover everyone for less than half the share of GDP. So cutting costs is definitely necessary. Cutting services is not.

Re: Just the Facts: S&P's $2 Trillion Mistake

#123

S&P's mistake is certainly incredibly embarrassing but apart from that I'm asking myself a much more fundamental question: Why is the ability to pay considered at all when it comes to the US? A country that is indebted in its own currency can theoretically never default on its nominal obligations. Not due to inability to pay at least. I don't think that credit rating agencies even try to pass judgement on the likelyh…

To me, it raises this other fundamental question: if, in a case so high-profile such as rating the US debt, S&P and their best experts make a $2T mistake, then how much trust can we put in the financial rating industry at a whole?

Re: Just the Facts: S&P's $2 Trillion Mistake

#124
As long as our political system continues to be run on professional politicians who pander to their base in order to keep their jobs we will never fix anything.

Anyone who runs a household, a business, or both, clearly understands that sometimes you have to make decision that are painful in order to survive and grow.

Our elected officials know that the masses would boot them if they make the right decisions for the nation. Our political system isn't about making the right decisions for the NATION, they are about politicians making the right decisions for POLITICIANS and POLITICAL parties.

Imagine this if you will: In the recent budget debates politicians actually expressed concern about what they did in view of next year's elections. Really? What does that tell you?

Fix that problem and our country will flourish. Do not fix it and you will continue to enjoy a front seat to the spectacle that is the destruction of the US from the inside.

Whether you lean liberal or conservative, the truth is that if we don't change you can kiss all you hold dear goodbye because we are only headed in one direction...an it ain't up. Your politicians are too busy trying to get re-elected to actually do what they are supposed to be doing.

If you started over, blank slate, how would you structure government and taxation so that they would produce the right results for the country?

Some key questions apply here:

1- What is the role of government? 2- How much of our lives should government control? 3- What is the purpose of taxation? 4- Should this be a country where the government protects people and companies from failure? 5- If charities and religious organizations operate tax free, shouldn't they be tasked with helping those in need rather than doing it through government programs? 6- The world is complicated. Shouldn't those who aspire to hold office (at various levels) demonstrate competency in the required fields of study much like anyone else applying for a job? 7- How can we stop voting because we like someone, or they speak well, or they look good on TV? All of which are far from qualifying anyone to hold office.

Of course, there are dozens of questions one could ask on this subject.

Re: Just the Facts: S&P's $2 Trillion Mistake

#125
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate to just post a +1, me too, but this, it seems, just isn't be said or recognized enough. The US, with one of the lowest tax burdens in the western world ( the lowest?) can easily afford to pay down it's debts but without any support for raising taxes in the slightest, not just amongst republicans but from what it seems are a vocal and loud minority (majority?) of Americans, no one can really act surprised by S&P'…

It isn't our current debts that have people concerned. It's the combination of current debts and unsustainable future obligations, which are so large that they in fact can't be paid down by just raising taxes. Barring an adjustment in what they are, they grow to the point that they eventually consume 100% of the economy in something like 40 years in conjunction with interest payments, but of course they become comple…

It is a political statement. As the Gr.Grandfather comment said, our debts are denominated in dollars, and can be paid off instantly, simply by printing the money. The only reason we can't is because the interest rates on treasuries would go asymptotic if we did that, because investing in bonds denominated in a currency that has a history of doing that would be a risky thing to say the least.

If the reason for the S&P downgrade was based on the debt, it would be purely political, because along with US treasuries, every security denominated in dollars would have to be equally downgraded simultaneously to make economic sense. They understand this, so this is not the reason they gave - they graded the US on its willingness to pay its debts. I think that's a vast overestimation of the power of unpopular spoiler Republicans (edit: and anti-Chinese xenophobia), but a case can be made.

But, even with the fiscal shape of the US now, investors are buying treasuries with interest rates at historic lows, because if you're not investing in US treasuries, what are you going to invest in? The property bubble was largely a response to super low treasury rates, and since it has burst, there has been a massive run-up in precious metals as a way to store savings and get a rate that beats inflation. Investors (the only people that have to be answered to in questions of government debt) make their evaluation of US debt available in real time, and the evaluation is excellent, no matter what any individual investors/pundits say with their mouths.

The worst outcome of more money printing is that those interest rates start to rise, making the dollar less valuable with respect to other currencies, which will make imported products more expensive for domestic consumers, and make our exports cheaper abroad, stimulating a rise in domestic manufacturing and employment. If in addition, that newly printed money was used to make investments in infrastructure, or simply handed to people with low to negative savings who will immediately spend it, the domestic inflationary effect would be captured by a rise in domestic wages. To the degree that all of this happens is the degree to which the massive trade deficits we've been running since Reagan decline or reverse, and the national debt (the combination of domestic public and private debt) is an accumulation of those deficits.

(And I would point out that I can't emphasize this point enough: If we do nothing to Social Security, it will be able to pay exactly as it has until 2035, and if no fixes have been made until then, 80% of what it has been paying until the earth plunges into the sun. This 80% will go further than the 100% being paid now due to the productivity gains between now and then, unless our response to the underutilized economy of this demand crisis is to make cuts that further underutilize the economy.)

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edit: that's what I get for not RTFA before commenting. I gave S&P a benefit of the doubt that it didn't deserve, and most of this was actually said by the treasury except for the "weak dollar is good and SS is fine" stuff. Well, a weakened dollar is good and SS is fine:)

Re: Just the Facts: S&P's $2 Trillion Mistake

#126
From Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine:

In February 1993, Canada was in the midst of financial catastrophe, or so one would have concluded by reading the newspapers and watching TV. “Debt Crisis Looms,” screamed a banner front-page headline in the national newspaper, the Globe and Mail. A major national television special reported that “economists are predicting that sometime in the next year, maybe two years, the deputy minister of finance is going to walk into cabinet and announce that Canada’s credit has run out…. Our lives will change dramatically.

The phrase “debt wall” suddenly entered the vocabulary. What it meant was that, although life seemed comfortable and peaceful now, Canada was spending so far beyond its means that, very soon, powerful Wall Street firms like Moody’s and Standard and Poor’s would downgrade our national credit rating from its perfect Triple A status to something much lower. When that happened, hypermobile investors, liberated by the new rules of globalisation and free trade, would simply pull their money from Canada and take it somewhere safer. The only solution, we were told, was to radically cut spending on such programs as unemployment insurance and health care. Sure enough, the governing Liberal Party did just that, despite having just been elected on a platform of job creation.

Two years after the deficit hysteria peaked, the investigative journalist Linda McQuaig definitively exposed that a sense of crisis had been carefully stoked and manipulated by a handful of think tanks funded by the largest banks and corporations in Canada, particularly the C. D. Howe Institute and the Fraser Institute (which Milton Friedman had always actively and strongly supported). Canada did have a deficit problem, but it wasn’t caused by spending on unemployment insurance and other social programs. According to Statistics Canada, it was caused by high interest rates, which exploded the worth of the debt much as the Volcker Shock had ballooned the developing world’s debt in the eighties. McQuaig went to Moody’s Wall Street head office and spoke with Vincent Truglia, the senior analyst in charge of issuing Canada’s credit rating. He told her something remarkable: that he had come under constant pressure from Canadian corporate executives and bankers to issue damning reports about the country’s finances, something he refused to do because he considered Canada an excellent, stable investment. “It’s the only country that I handle where, usually, nationals from that country want the country downgraded even more – on a regular basis. They think it’s rated too highly.” He said he was used to getting calls from country representatives telling him he had issued too low a rating. “But Canadians usually, if anything, disparage their country far more than foreigners do.”

That’s because, for the Canadian financial community, the “deficit crisis” was a critical weapon in a pitched political battle. At the time Truglia was getting those strange calls, a major campaign was afoot to push the government to lower taxes by cutting spending on social programs such as health and education. Since these programs are supported by an overwhelming majority of Canadians, the only way the cuts could be justified was if the alternative was national economic collapse – a full blown crisis. The fact that Moody’s kept giving Canada the highest possible bond rating – the equivalent of an A++ – was making it extremely difficult to maintain the apocalyptic mood.

Investors, meanwhile, were getting confused by the mixed messages. Moody’s was upbeat about Canada, but the Canadian press constantly presented the national finances as catastrophic. Truglia got so fed up with the politicised statistics coming out of Canada, which he felt were calling his own research into question, that he took the extraordinary step of issuing a “special commentary” clarifying that Canada’s spending was “not out of control,” and he even aimed some veiled shots at the dodgy math practiced by right-wing think tanks. “Several recently published reports have grossly exaggerated Canada’s fiscal debt position. Some of them have double counted numbers, while others have made inappropriate international comparisons… These inaccurate measurements may have played a role in exaggerated evaluations of the severity of Canada’s debt problems.” With Moody’s special report, word was out that there was no looming “debt wall” – and Canada’s business community was not pleased. Truglia says that when he put out the commentary, “one Canadian… from a very large financial institution in Canada called me up on the telephone screaming at me, literally screaming at me. That was unique.”

By the time Canadians learned that the “deficit crisis” had been grossly manipulated by the corporate-funded think tanks, it hardly mattered – the budget cuts had already been made and locked in. As a direct result, social programs for the country’s unemployed were radically eroded and have never recovered, despite many subsequent surplus budgets. The crisis strategy was used again and again in this period. In September 1995, a video was leaked to the Canadian press of John Snobelen, Ontario’s minister of education, telling a closed-door meeting of civil servants that before cuts to education and other unpopular reforms could be announced, a climate of panic needed to be created by leaking information that painted a more dire picture than he “would be inclined to talk about”. He called it “creating a useful crisis."

http://www.metafilter.com/106249/US-Credit-Rating-Downgrade-...

Re: Just the Facts: S&P's $2 Trillion Mistake

#128
post #123

S&P's mistake is certainly incredibly embarrassing but apart from that I'm asking myself a much more fundamental question: Why is the ability to pay considered at all when it comes to the US? A country that is indebted in its own currency can theoretically never default on its nominal obligations. Not due to inability to pay at least. I don't think that credit rating agencies even try to pass judgement on the likelyh…

To me, it raises this other fundamental question: if, in a case so high-profile such as rating the US debt, S&P and their best experts make a $2T mistake, then how much trust can we put in the financial rating industry at a whole ?

The erosion of faith goes deeper than that, as James Galbraith discusses in this talk from earlier in the year.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/08/james-galbraith-on-fr...

  This is the diagnosis of an irreversible disease. The corruption and
  collapse of the rule of law, in the financial sphere, is basically
  irreparable. It’s not just that restoring trust takes a long
  time. It’s that under the new technological order in this field, it
  can not be done. The technologies are designed to sow and foster
  distrust and that is the consequence of using them. The recent
  experience proves this, it seems to me. And therefore there can be no
  return to the way things were before. In other words, we are at the
  end of the illusion of a market place in the financial sphere.

Re: Just the Facts: S&P's $2 Trillion Mistake

#129
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the likelihood of the US not paying its debt is basically 0 -- what they are really concerned about the US printing money (something that's already started under QE2). Printing money is basically a way to default without calling it a default -- and as a bond holder it can be disastrous.

If it leads to hyperinflation, yes it is a de facto default. However, the simple act of printing money isn't an act of default, and there may be valid reasons for it economically.

Valid economically, sure. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be disastrous to investors, which is what S&P cares about.

Re: Just the Facts: S&P's $2 Trillion Mistake

#130
This is crazy, Treasury is shooting the messenger and damaging their own credibility with this line of attack.

Out-year budgeting is very complex, and there are a lot of bullshit assumptions about various "promised" spending cuts and tax increases. By jumping all over S&P for a mistake that has nothing to do with the massive, ongoing deficits this year and next, Treasury shows it is in a strange state of denial.

It is past time for Sec. Geithner to resign.

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