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Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

reuters.com

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Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#641

Post by tdsamardzhiev »

tailspin2019 wrote: post #634
tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of these would only serve to amplify the power of Iranian government many fold. And there is no "maybe" and no "time to time". We're talking the de-facto tools of surveillance capitalism here. When their interests aren't aligned with Iranian government, they'd be aligned with American government, and the latter is what brought upon you the former in the first place. To be honest, I think that tech has no solutio…

> Both of these would only serve to amplify the power of Iranian government many fold. And there is no "maybe" and no "time to time". We're talking the de-facto tools of surveillance capitalism here. Your argument is definitely compelling - I share the distrust in the way things are going with “surveillance capitalism” as you call it, but, is there a risk of being too binary here? For example, could it be possible th…

> I’m not sure. But I’m open to the possibility and I think the parent makes a strong case from their description of their own experience with Iran.

Of course! I'm just observing how tech is being applied in my part of the world and assuming the same thing will happen in theirs. There's a good possibility that my hypothesis is incomplete or just plain wrong. I thought it's worth sharing nevertheless.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#642

Post by emilsedgh »

tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #641
tailspin2019 wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both of these would only serve to amplify the power of Iranian government many fold. And there is no "maybe" and no "time to time". We're talking the de-facto tools of surveillance capitalism here. Your argument is definitely compelling - I share the distrust in the way things are going with “surveillance capitalism” as you call it, but, is there a risk of being too binary here? For example, could it be possible th…

> I’m not sure. But I’m open to the possibility and I think the parent makes a strong case from their description of their own experience with Iran. Of course! I'm just observing how tech is being applied in my part of the world and assuming the same thing will happen in theirs. There's a good possibility that my hypothesis is incomplete or just plain wrong. I thought it's worth sharing nevertheless.

I live in the US now and I'm no stranger to how these companies surveil you. My point is, Google has more incentives and interests than just keeping the powers to be in Iran.

But a state-owned company would only and only have 1 master, which would be the state. And it wouldn't bring any of the benefits of Google with it. It would surveil you more aggressively and it would be more devoted to the state.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#643

Post by emilsedgh »

tailspin2019 wrote: post #633
emilsedgh wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll try my best, but obviously these are just my thoughts and a lot of other people don't necessarily agree with me. I think all authoritarian governments rely on a chunk of their population to stay in power. This population can be very small, but sufficient. In order to maintain their popularity they rely on: 1. Lack of education 2. Strong propaganda 3. Poverty 4. Social welfare 5. Religion & ideology 6. Fear of en…

> Sorry this wasn't a well written, well thought piece. Are you kidding? This is one of most eloquent and thoughtful responses I’ve ever had to a question on HN. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts down. Everything you’ve said makes total sense, and it totally balances out my original gut reaction which was “fuck Apple and Google, just pull out of the country rather than giving in to these sorts of demand…

> At the risk of digging in a bit politically here… I’m curious if Donald Trump’s actions here were a crucial tipping point in your view or if there were other factors too that were obviously at play? As much as I’d love to blame it all on Trump I’m curious if he exacerbated things that were already slipping, or if he (and the Republicans) precipitated it…

There were obviously a lot of factors in play here. However, pulling out of JCPOA, against the will of all European partners and many US companies with no alternative reason was a crime. It was only to deny Obama/Democrats a win (over a good deal with Iran) which has brought a decade of misery upon Iranian people and risk of more wars among people in the region.

But the JCPOA was a massive, massive step forward and had no downsides for any of the countries involved. But leaving JCPOA was a step even more backwards and it may have pushed Iran over the edge. It may have been a point of no return for Iranian regime.

P.S: Thank you for the kind words.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#644

Post by emilsedgh »

CapsAdmin wrote: post #640
emilsedgh wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll try my best, but obviously these are just my thoughts and a lot of other people don't necessarily agree with me. I think all authoritarian governments rely on a chunk of their population to stay in power. This population can be very small, but sufficient. In order to maintain their popularity they rely on: 1. Lack of education 2. Strong propaganda 3. Poverty 4. Social welfare 5. Religion & ideology 6. Fear of en…

Very interesting writeup. Now I'm left wondering, what do we imagine google to be in russia when we say google should pull out? Do we imagine that all of google will be blocked because they would no longer respond to russia's requests? Or maybe because act of pulling out is a political statement in on itself? If google was the only connection to the western world, surely that would be different than if google was jus…

When the parent is asking for Google to leave Russia, that implies any given company in the same situation should, which would certainly be in the direction of limiting country's communication with the outside world and create more hostility between the nations.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#645

Post by amarkula »

ericmay wrote: post #314
fsflover wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual problem is not that Apple removed the app. It's that there is no other way to install the app if Apple removes it from their store.

Why wouldn’t they just force other app stores to pull the app too?

Longer Streisand effect

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#646

Post by ClumsyPilot »

Grustaf wrote: post #639
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not american, and I dont understand this obsession of American companies making of retaining control of items they already don't down, because they sold them. I think having these for-profit busybodies butting in how you can live your life is a great threat to invidividual liberty.

How does this threaten your liberty?

You know how posting nudes gets you banned from social media, or gets your google account banned and you loose access to all your files on Drive?

The same will happen with physical devices that you bought - a car, an electric bike, a smart coffee machine. Imagine a car detecting you are smoking dope, or taking an issue with your trip to the abortion clinic.

You think it's not gonna happen, its too absurd? I just had to sign a 42 page lisence agreement to ride a bike.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#647

Post by emilsedgh »

tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #632
emilsedgh wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the choices are: 1. A western company that has to abide to Russian's unlawful and immoral requests time to time 2. A Russian company, which either belongs to the state, or is fully controlled by the state, or has absolutely 0 power against the state. You choose 2? Another way of looking at it for me is this: If, one day, Iran and US governments allow Google to operate in Iran, that'd be a step forward. It's true t…

Both of these would only serve to amplify the power of Iranian government many fold. And there is no "maybe" and no "time to time". We're talking the de-facto tools of surveillance capitalism here. When their interests aren't aligned with Iranian government, they'd be aligned with American government, and the latter is what brought upon you the former in the first place. To be honest, I think that tech has no solutio…

> Both of these would only serve to amplify the power of Iranian government many fold. And there is no "maybe" and no "time to time". We're talking the de-facto tools of surveillance capitalism here.

I'm not so sure they would be equal. Example:

Iranians have been using Telegram/Whatsapp/Viber for many years. And every few years the government tries to block them and push their own "national" app. Every time they try to push this agenda, there is a massive massive backlash, because noone trusts the government.

Maybe Iranian government would have enough leverage against Facebook/Google to ask them to do something (like removing Navalny app) at key moments (or push to surveil some key people at certain moments) but they definitely wont have access to every single person's database like a "national" app would. That's a very big difference.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#648

Post by tailspin2019 »

emilsedgh wrote: post #643
tailspin2019 wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry this wasn't a well written, well thought piece. Are you kidding? This is one of most eloquent and thoughtful responses I’ve ever had to a question on HN. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts down. Everything you’ve said makes total sense, and it totally balances out my original gut reaction which was “fuck Apple and Google, just pull out of the country rather than giving in to these sorts of demand…

> At the risk of digging in a bit politically here… I’m curious if Donald Trump’s actions here were a crucial tipping point in your view or if there were other factors too that were obviously at play? As much as I’d love to blame it all on Trump I’m curious if he exacerbated things that were already slipping, or if he (and the Republicans) precipitated it… There were obviously a lot of factors in play here. However,…

I’ve just been reading up on the JCPOA [0] as I have to admit my total ignorance on this topic.

It does seem like you’re right to be emphasising the significance of the US pulling out of this. (And that’s probably an understatement).

Thanks for your level headed elaboration of your thinking on this - I’ve learnt a great deal from this thread and shifted a few perspectives!

This is why I come to HN.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Comprehensive_Plan_of_...

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#649

Post by tailspin2019 »

tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #641
tailspin2019 wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both of these would only serve to amplify the power of Iranian government many fold. And there is no "maybe" and no "time to time". We're talking the de-facto tools of surveillance capitalism here. Your argument is definitely compelling - I share the distrust in the way things are going with “surveillance capitalism” as you call it, but, is there a risk of being too binary here? For example, could it be possible th…

> I’m not sure. But I’m open to the possibility and I think the parent makes a strong case from their description of their own experience with Iran. Of course! I'm just observing how tech is being applied in my part of the world and assuming the same thing will happen in theirs. There's a good possibility that my hypothesis is incomplete or just plain wrong. I thought it's worth sharing nevertheless.

> There's a good possibility that my hypothesis is incomplete or just plain wrong. I thought it's worth sharing nevertheless.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s a good chance my hypothesis is incomplete too! :)

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#650

Post by silexia »

tablespoon wrote: post #408
oliwarner wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that by this point, all this is expected behaviour. If companies don't want to be complicit in these crimes, they need to extricate themselves from the country and cut all ties. If they do want to put profit ahead of everything else, then whatever, but you don't get to defend them as doing the right thing for their employees. They're enabling the whole situation. [Edit to bring in a sister question] "Why don't…

> If they do want to put profit ahead of everything else, then whatever, but you don't get to defend them as doing the right thing for their employees. They're enabling the whole situation. IMHO, cooperating with an authoritarian regime in this way should be illegal, sort of like a sanctions violation. Cook and Pachai should go to jail for this. That consequence might clarify their thinking a little.

I agree. All US companies should be required to fully withdraw from countries with active dictatorships.

Unfortunately, US companies have lost all trace of ethics. Most product companies now have planned obsolence, and use regulatory capture and abusive patents to grow revenues rather than putting customers first.

We are truly in the twilight of the free market.

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