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Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

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Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#631

Post by emilsedgh »

tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #627
emilsedgh wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll try my best, but obviously these are just my thoughts and a lot of other people don't necessarily agree with me. I think all authoritarian governments rely on a chunk of their population to stay in power. This population can be very small, but sufficient. In order to maintain their popularity they rely on: 1. Lack of education 2. Strong propaganda 3. Poverty 4. Social welfare 5. Religion & ideology 6. Fear of en…

> So my question after this story is, do you think Google leaving Russia will end up helping Russians get more educated, more wealthy, more connected to the free world? Maybe, if the alternative is them cooperating with the dictator government for more effective surveillance and enforcement? Google from 2021 isn't Google from 2006. I mean, 20 years ago I'd 100% agree with you, but modern-day big tech is... yikes! The…

So the choices are:

1. A western company that has to abide to Russian's unlawful and immoral requests time to time

2. A Russian company, which either belongs to the state, or is fully controlled by the state, or has absolutely 0 power against the state.

You choose 2?

Another way of looking at it for me is this:

If, one day, Iran and US governments allow Google to operate in Iran, that'd be a step forward. It's true that Google _may_ have to bow to Iran's regime from time to time. It's also true that Google may _want_ to help Iran's regime from time to time (due to whatever interest) but their interest is not 100% aligned. It's only sometimes aligned.

That, next to all the benefits of Google operating in Iran, would definitely make me choose 1.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#632

Post by tdsamardzhiev »

emilsedgh wrote: post #631
tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So my question after this story is, do you think Google leaving Russia will end up helping Russians get more educated, more wealthy, more connected to the free world? Maybe, if the alternative is them cooperating with the dictator government for more effective surveillance and enforcement? Google from 2021 isn't Google from 2006. I mean, 20 years ago I'd 100% agree with you, but modern-day big tech is... yikes! The…

So the choices are: 1. A western company that has to abide to Russian's unlawful and immoral requests time to time 2. A Russian company, which either belongs to the state, or is fully controlled by the state, or has absolutely 0 power against the state. You choose 2? Another way of looking at it for me is this: If, one day, Iran and US governments allow Google to operate in Iran, that'd be a step forward. It's true t…

Both of these would only serve to amplify the power of Iranian government many fold. And there is no "maybe" and no "time to time". We're talking the de-facto tools of surveillance capitalism here. When their interests aren't aligned with Iranian government, they'd be aligned with American government, and the latter is what brought upon you the former in the first place.

To be honest, I think that tech has no solution for you, and that you're only looking there because tech's what you're good at.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#633

Post by tailspin2019 »

emilsedgh wrote: post #612
tailspin2019 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interested in your thoughts on what would help? From your point of view?

I'll try my best, but obviously these are just my thoughts and a lot of other people don't necessarily agree with me. I think all authoritarian governments rely on a chunk of their population to stay in power. This population can be very small, but sufficient. In order to maintain their popularity they rely on: 1. Lack of education 2. Strong propaganda 3. Poverty 4. Social welfare 5. Religion & ideology 6. Fear of en…

> Sorry this wasn't a well written, well thought piece.

Are you kidding? This is one of most eloquent and thoughtful responses I’ve ever had to a question on HN.

Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts down. Everything you’ve said makes total sense, and it totally balances out my original gut reaction which was “fuck Apple and Google, just pull out of the country rather than giving in to these sorts of demands”.

Having followed Navalny’s story, I felt outraged that these two massive tech companies can’t even keep his political support app online to just give a modicum of support to the guy single-handedly (almost) taking on Putin.

What I didn’t consider, and what’s made much more clear to me by your brilliant response, is that it may only be due to the proliferation of “generally open” (relatively) tech companies like Apple and Google in Russia that has allowed Navalny to build momentum and support there in the first place.

The benefits of better communication and easier proliferation of ideas that are brought by the internet and the tech companies that enable this “communication and idea sharing infrastructure” can be easily overlooked.

If you have a blog or somewhere to publish your ideas, you should totally publish this comment as an article as it’s insightful and brilliant.

> Fast forward to Donald Trump leaving the JCPOA, putting a "maximum pressure" campaign against Iran.

> The economy went to shit (it's really a humanitarian crisis now). The government, scared of riots, locked everything down…

At the risk of digging in a bit politically here… I’m curious if Donald Trump’s actions here were a crucial tipping point in your view or if there were other factors too that were obviously at play? As much as I’d love to blame it all on Trump I’m curious if he exacerbated things that were already slipping, or if he (and the Republicans) precipitated it…

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#634

Post by tailspin2019 »

tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #632
emilsedgh wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the choices are: 1. A western company that has to abide to Russian's unlawful and immoral requests time to time 2. A Russian company, which either belongs to the state, or is fully controlled by the state, or has absolutely 0 power against the state. You choose 2? Another way of looking at it for me is this: If, one day, Iran and US governments allow Google to operate in Iran, that'd be a step forward. It's true t…

Both of these would only serve to amplify the power of Iranian government many fold. And there is no "maybe" and no "time to time". We're talking the de-facto tools of surveillance capitalism here. When their interests aren't aligned with Iranian government, they'd be aligned with American government, and the latter is what brought upon you the former in the first place. To be honest, I think that tech has no solutio…

> Both of these would only serve to amplify the power of Iranian government many fold. And there is no "maybe" and no "time to time". We're talking the de-facto tools of surveillance capitalism here.

Your argument is definitely compelling - I share the distrust in the way things are going with “surveillance capitalism” as you call it, but, is there a risk of being too binary here?

For example, could it be possible that options 1 and 2 do not necessarily have the same negative outcome. Could an outside tech company (not state controlled) even if it’s under control of a western government that’s continually pushing for more control (and I speak as a Brit where we’re fighting our own battles on this front) still be better at helping to spread freedom of communication and ideas even marginally than the fully state controlled alternative?

It’s all relative I think. No country is perfect, no government is perfect. As a Brit my government fucks up continuously. The American government fucks up continuously. The Australian government fucks up continuously (looking at the recent legislation that we’ve talked about on HN). We’re all basket cases. But, the world is imperfect. Is it possible that even with our flaws, a more open and democratic (relatively) country’s private sector companies can still have a positive impact by having a presence in less open/democratic countries? Even if that means having to acquiesce occasionally?

I’m not sure. But I’m open to the possibility and I think the parent makes a strong case from their description of their own experience with Iran.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#635

Post by mrtksn »

lostmsu wrote: post #622
mrtksn wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s something that the public would do. It’s not up to the corporations. Govt says take that down, the company takes it down, public outrage ensues, govt takes a step back, the company brings it back. The good thing about governments is that you actually pick the management. Even in not so democratic places it is common and acceptable to take down poor managers through any means. With companies, you only can hope…

> That’s something that the public would do. It’s not up to the corporations. Corporations consist of people.

Sure, just as the government

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#636

Post by jhrmnn »

a1369209993 wrote: post #624
2xpress wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed a good point. Had the US elected representatives had better morals none of this would have ever happened. It would have been pre-empted decades ago. But we have no influence over their morals, only an ability to vote for or against them. Those elected by definition are the best people available. So if they don't have good morals that means the whole society does not have good morals. I suppose the best we can…

> Those elected by definition are the best people available. If by "available", you mean political candidates, then yes. If you mean of the society in general, then no, quite the opposite, actually. > So if they don't have good morals that means the whole society does not have good morals. No, it means two of the worst people in the society (namely, the 'republican' candidate and the 'democratic' candidate) do not ha…

I think this distrust in democracy as a system to elect representative people to legislate and govern is widespread and to a certain degree based on facts, but also deeply worrying. In a way it signifies a failure of democracy.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#637

Post by tialaramex »

sershe wrote: post #628
tialaramex wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're from Russia, what part of the Democratic party looks like "leftism" to you?

I am of course comparing to the USSR, not modern Russia. Pretty much the entire "progressive" wing of the party, with its anti-capitalism and fostering massive welfare state dependency, as well as the recent focus on "oppression" and "power", and purity testing. I am pretty meh/cynical about the economic aspects, actually; sure, I think these are bad ideas, but unless they run the thing entirely into the ground, I be…

> USSR has collapsed when I was 7, but I was still brainwashed enough that I remember asking my parents about the English Premier League - how come they have soccer in England?

Uhuh. So in 1991 you asked about an institution that wasn't created until 1992, because you believed it couldn't exist under capitalism even though it's actually explicitly a capitalist endeavour to make the richest clubs in English soccer even richer?

I would say that most likely you should watch less Tucker Carlson, or at least be mindful of the fact that Tucker gets paid millions of dollars per year to make you "genuinely afraid of cultural garbage".

However maybe this is a good time to explain the Football Pyramid for both imaginary Russian seven year olds and HN readers instead.

In the US system major sports leagues are purely business, no matter how terrible the Yankees are they will continue to play every year so long as it makes economic sense. The outcome of games isn't rigged (usually) but no matter how terrible you are at whichever sport, your "punishment" is typically just better chance to win next year.

In England football teams are arranged into a Pyramid of leagues. In principle over years of failure/ success, Liverpool FC, an internationally renowned team could swap places with Kingsley United, a bunch of amateurs from the Liverpool area. Each year, up to three worst performing Premier League team can be "relegated" to the league below, the Championship, and up to three of the best Championship teams are "promoted" to the Premier League, while the same happens in the Championship, League One, League Two, then the National League, and after that there are regional leagues, with promotions or relegations being regional right down until we reach the likes of Kingsley United.

The creation of the Premier League all those years ago, and a more recent attempt to do the same at a European level, is because very wealthy clubs envy the US system. In England you're only ever one bad season away from relegation, and relegation means much less money coming into your club from fans (local "true" fans may stay, but who supports an obscure Division Two team from across the globe the way people support Manchester United?) and from TV rights (the Premier League rights sell for a lot of money, the Championship is much cheaper, and most other games are not televised). More tiers means fewer slices of the cake, more money for the very top clubs which they can spend ensuring they stay there (e.g. buying star players for eye-watering sums of money). The relatively recently abandoned "European Super League" was intended to be even more like the US system by not having relegation. So some of its clubs might have been awful but too bad, they're staying, and gathering the resulting cash, forever. Blergh.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#638

Post by Grustaf »

heavyset_go wrote: post #616
Grustaf wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still, why not send actual CSAM then, so that they are actually caught? Getting them into review just causes them inconvenience. Remember, only the flagged images will be reviewed, and only they could ever be sent to law enforcement, so it wouldn't even reveal their private photos or anything like that.

> Still, why not send actual CSAM then, so that they are actually caught? Getting them into review just causes them inconvenience. Because that requires possessing illegal images, while legal pornography that also happens to cause a hash collision with NeuralHash doesn't. Again, no one at Apple is reviewing the source image. They're reviewing obfuscated derivative images, and then informing law enforcement if they su…

Why would the police raid you based on blurry versions of completely legal images?

And are you really saying that the images Apple reviews are so blurry that they can’t review them? That seems like a very stupid system.

In any case, your scenario sounds pretty far fetched. Even if it actually works, I wouldn’t say it’s a major blocker.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#639

Post by Grustaf »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #594
Grustaf wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don’t understand why americans are so obsessed with “my property”. I guess it’s a cultural thing.

I am not american, and I dont understand this obsession of American companies making of retaining control of items they already don't down, because they sold them. I think having these for-profit busybodies butting in how you can live your life is a great threat to invidividual liberty.

How does this threaten your liberty?

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#640

Post by CapsAdmin »

emilsedgh wrote: post #612
tailspin2019 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interested in your thoughts on what would help? From your point of view?

I'll try my best, but obviously these are just my thoughts and a lot of other people don't necessarily agree with me. I think all authoritarian governments rely on a chunk of their population to stay in power. This population can be very small, but sufficient. In order to maintain their popularity they rely on: 1. Lack of education 2. Strong propaganda 3. Poverty 4. Social welfare 5. Religion & ideology 6. Fear of en…

Very interesting writeup.

Now I'm left wondering, what do we imagine google to be in russia when we say google should pull out?

Do we imagine that all of google will be blocked because they would no longer respond to russia's requests? Or maybe because act of pulling out is a political statement in on itself?

If google was the only connection to the western world, surely that would be different than if google was just one of many connections to the western world?

Maybe it's a slippery slope.

A bit unrelated, it seems like free satellite internet independent from state using smuggled phones could help. Maybe it's optimistic and naive, but I imagine it would be similar to getting illegal music and sharing that with your friends.

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