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6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

19fortyfive.com

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Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#71

Post by robbedpeter »

Epa095 wrote: post #58
snicker7 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last 70 or so years have been the most peaceful in human history. How? The American military and economic hegemony. If you want peace, build more aircraft carriers.

Correlation causation

History. Human nature. The state as leviathan. Sometimes causation is correlated.

When nukes came into play, the consequences of violating the peace became too much for any sane state to countenance. The US used nuclear superiority to take on the role of global leviathan.

Despite missteps, it used its monopoly on violence as a very big stick that's allowed for a very lengthy peace. If certain idiot regimes keep playing stupid games, we're going to see what happens when the nuclear stick gets used, unfortunately. That might ensure a century or so of peace, if everything doesn't die.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#73

Post by kostap »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #24
pathseeker wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The navy was in a conflict with illiterate goat herders?

I can decode this rant. The Zumwalt class started out as a requirement from the armed forces committee in congress for a replacement for the old battleship Naval Gunfire Support mission. That is sit a bit off the coast and go boom with big guns to help the boots on the ground. Just one wee little problem with that: anti ship missiles have made that a suicide mission since approximately the late 60s. And no, all the s…

They were given 10 billion to design/build 30 ships. They spent 30-40 billion and got 3 ship that can barely float. Only in the US.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#74

Post by jabl »

ganzuul wrote: post #66
jabl wrote: post #61

It seems in Europe there is the general idea that with the USA waning as the sole superpower, and further with the USA more and more focused on great power competition with China [1] rather than partnering with Europe against the Soviet Union, Europe must take on more responsibility for its own defense. Including the capability to build top of the line high tech military gear like fighter jets. Of course, the problem…

Don't be so eager to throw our tax money into this pit.

As an European taxpayer, I'm certainly concerned that resources are wasted. OTOH, Putin has time and again proved that he's a belligerent crook entirely willing to expand his territory any time his neighbors show weakness. Much as I wish it were different, Europe must be able to mount a credible defense, with or without the USA.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#75

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

kostap wrote: post #73
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can decode this rant. The Zumwalt class started out as a requirement from the armed forces committee in congress for a replacement for the old battleship Naval Gunfire Support mission. That is sit a bit off the coast and go boom with big guns to help the boots on the ground. Just one wee little problem with that: anti ship missiles have made that a suicide mission since approximately the late 60s. And no, all the s…

They were given 10 billion to design/build 30 ships. They spent 30-40 billion and got 3 ship that can barely float. Only in the US.

The ships float fine. There's a sort of internet forum meme about them having poor seakeeping due to the unusual tumblehome hull. That's 100% imagined by forum warriors. The boats have remarkable stability and superior seakeeping. That's not the problem with them at all. The problem with them is they they were designed for a mission that was boneheaded from the beginning, and that costs ballooned tremendously to build them.

The Navy's plan for them now is to convert them into missile boats for the new hypersonic missiles, if/when those are ready, so they main end up being somewhat useful eventually. But again, you'd not want to spend money the way we had to get to this result if you had some way to rewind the errors.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#76

Post by aliswe »

davhandy wrote: post #63
anonuser123456 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cruise missiles are like a million bucks a pop.

That sounds really cheap, source? I was expecting maybe 10m (still a drop in the ocean). At 1m a pop you can fire a 1000 a day a still only be at 1billion/day

not ballistic, but:

In 2015 the United States planned to procure 7,474 rounds with a FY2015 total program cost of US$1.9341 billion at an average cost of US$258,777 per unit.[6] By 2016, unit costs were reduced to US$68,000 per round

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M982_Excalibur

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#77

Post by erdewit »

numpad0 wrote: post #23
Waterluvian wrote: post #15

At what point does the ideal approach just become building a LOT of cheap drones that carry minimal ordnance?

That’s called cruise missiles

> That’s called cruise missiles

There's also the class of "Loitering munition", which was used to great effect in the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war.

https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/loitering-munitions-pre...

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#78

Post by habibur »

swarnie wrote: post #70
snicker7 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last 70 or so years have been the most peaceful in human history. How? The American military and economic hegemony. If you want peace, build more aircraft carriers.

> The last 70 or so years have been the most peaceful in human history. IRAQ WAR (2003-2011) WAR IN AFGHANISTAN (2001-PRESENT) GULF WAR (1990-1991) VIETNAM WAR (1959-1975) KOREAN WAR (1950-1953) This is ignoring an entire array of coups, rebellions, brutal suppressions and subjugations encompassing basically every country in South America The last 70 years have only seemed peaceful because your the one doing the geno…

Relatively is the keyword here.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#79

Post by dimitar »

wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Military budgets are peace spending. Wars begin when politicians think they can achieve goals easily using arms - see Germany's plans in the World Wars, Saddam's invasion of Iran, Russia's invasion of Ukraine after the 2013 revolution or most wars really.

Having strong armed forces and military alliances are an insurance policy against being invaded.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#80

Post by toxik »

swarnie wrote: post #70
snicker7 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last 70 or so years have been the most peaceful in human history. How? The American military and economic hegemony. If you want peace, build more aircraft carriers.

> The last 70 or so years have been the most peaceful in human history. IRAQ WAR (2003-2011) WAR IN AFGHANISTAN (2001-PRESENT) GULF WAR (1990-1991) VIETNAM WAR (1959-1975) KOREAN WAR (1950-1953) This is ignoring an entire array of coups, rebellions, brutal suppressions and subjugations encompassing basically every country in South America The last 70 years have only seemed peaceful because your the one doing the geno…

You are surely aware that there were FAR more wars before this. War was basically just a fact of life for most people in most of our settled past.
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