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The Crime of Curiosity

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201–210 of 223 posts

Re: The Crime of Curiosity

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is even worse logic than some arguments in this sphere. The audience is wherever there's a link to click on. Anyone who can watch YT can watch vimeo or peertube or even a self-hosted video. There's no problem with that click - the problem is getting people to click. You want YT to do more than host videos, you want them to market videos to their users. If YT was a completely passive video host (i.e. when you wat…

> The audience is wherever there's a link to click on. This is where the audience could be. I don't know the solution to be honest. But the reality is, if a video is not on YouTube, it will not reach a wide audience. If a popular channel gets removed from YouTube, few people will ever watch it again. In most cases this means short term bankruptcy. People could click. People could follow. But they don't.

> if a video is not on YouTube, it will not reach a wide audience.

But that's not because of any technological issue with watching videos hosted anywhere else. There are absolutely zero technological obstacles to people watching videos elsewhere.

The reason it doesn't reach a wide audience is because of "the algorithm" (or rather, two algorithms):

1. the one that YT uses to put possible videos for you to watch in front of you while you watching something else

2. the fact that people tend to search on YT and tend to share YT links rather than links to other video locations (a "human procedural algorithm", if you like)

I don't see how you can equate the power that this "gives" YT with governmental power. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing things outside of YT other than their (generally incorrect) belief that being unable to leverage "the algorithm" is death.

> If a popular channel gets removed from YouTube, few people will ever watch it again.

There's no right to use YT's algorithm or network effects for your own benefit. Does that give them great power? It does, yes. Is that like a government? I don't think that it is.

Re: The Crime of Curiosity

#202
>And the whole "believe science" thing? I’m sorry, it’s complete bullshit. Science is not something to be believed or trusted. Trust is antithetical to science. Show me the data, and let me decide for myself.

This 1000 times. I keep having to tell people this and it's frustrating due to the fact that people who parrot "just trust the science" are acting more like religious zealots. "Trust the science" is just another way of saying "just have faith".

Re: The Crime of Curiosity

#203
post #13

"Democratizing genetic engineering won’t suddenly unleash bioterrorism upon the world." How sure is he of that, and why? As a comparison, nuclear power has been of great utility for many countries, but I sure would not want to see it "democratized".

Yeah but requiring school does nothing to prevent abuse. For instance, Kim Jong Un went to university.

Just because people gatekeep knowledge, that doesn't automatically mean only good people will get access to it. It actually means that if bad people infiltrate the gatekeeping organization then they can actually prevent good people from participating

Re: The Crime of Curiosity

#204
post #21

At the core of YouTube's censorship is the idea that people aren't intelligent or wise enough to know what kinds of videos they should watch. They don't know what's good for them. Whatever you may think of that idea, surely the idea that YouTube, which reduces down to a bunch of people sitting behind desks, should get to decide what others watch is questionable. That is, they think a small group of people are wiser a…

> At the core of YouTube's censorship is the idea that people aren't intelligent or wise enough to know what kinds of videos they should watch. They don't know what's good for them. I'm not sure I'd agree. I think that's putting far too much faith in them. YouTube's goal, roughly stated, is "More Hours Watched." This, in whatever form is appropriate, is pretty much the end goal of any social media sharing handwave et…

> Bad press is bad for hours viewed

I don't think this is true really. People aren't going to stop watching YouTube because it pulls others down conspiracy rabbit holes.

I think the real reason is that bad press is unhappy employees and less potential recruits.

Re: The Crime of Curiosity

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that is not correct. Social media is fine in basic forms, such as Reddit/HN style forum threads, and Facebook's keeping-in-touch-with-old-friends and arranging events. Mixing news into social media, sharing stories to Facebook, turned it from a coffee shop into a town square with a million soap boxes. Bad actors then seized that format and used it to spread propaganda and disinformation. That's not to say t…

> Mixing news into social media, sharing stories to Facebook, turned it from a coffee shop into a town square with a million soap boxes. That only happened after Facebook decided to editorialize everybody's main view. People were not even used to sharing news at that point, but it was the only thing that Facebook allowed to spread. Anyway, I'm not sure about causality. But claiming that fake news spreading through a…

"That only happened after Facebook decided to editorialize everybody's main view. People were not even used to sharing news at that point, but it was the only thing that Facebook allowed to spread."

That's a great point, I hadn't considered that. Thank you!

Re: The Crime of Curiosity

#206

Biohacking in the sense of making E. coli grow on a different substrate, like in the ODIN kit, is pretty tame and unobjectionable. Promoting the manufacture and administration of homemade vaccines, though, is human subjects research, or _very_ close to it. The current manner in which society handles human subjects research came about through reaction to specific offenses, the main ones being Nazi experiments, governm…

> Promoting experimental (biohacked) treatments and guiding people through administering them is not compatible with the currently accepted ethical framework for protection of human subjects, _especially_ if it's done with intent of generating scientific knowledge. > Extension of current approaches to human subjects research to accommodate a public DIY biology / biohacking community may be possible but seems tricky t…

> If you are independent and including others in your research, you are only bound by general medical ethics.

The National Research Act and the Belmont report were created in opposition to this attitude. Henry Beecher led the fight (in the 1960s, preceeding the NRA and Belmont report) to make including others in your research be subject to research ethics, not just medical ethics, and to enforce this with regulation. The regulation was focused on institutions because at the time research was done by institutions. Now, post-internet and post-genetics revolution, we're retreading the same ground but with different details. A different approach is therefore warranted, but a free-for-all is just as unacceptable as it was in the early 20th century. I understand that this is unwelcome and is certainly inconvenient, but institutional science succeeded in regulating itself, and biohacking can do the same.

Re: The Crime of Curiosity

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The audience is wherever there's a link to click on. This is where the audience could be. I don't know the solution to be honest. But the reality is, if a video is not on YouTube, it will not reach a wide audience. If a popular channel gets removed from YouTube, few people will ever watch it again. In most cases this means short term bankruptcy. People could click. People could follow. But they don't.

> if a video is not on YouTube, it will not reach a wide audience. But that's not because of any technological issue with watching videos hosted anywhere else. There are absolutely zero technological obstacles to people watching videos elsewhere. The reason it doesn't reach a wide audience is because of "the algorithm" (or rather, two algorithms): 1. the one that YT uses to put possible videos for you to watch in fro…

OK we need a bit of nuance there: I do reckon there are many niches that don’t need to cater to a general audience to begin with. Specialised conferences on InfoQ are a good example: their audience is very specific, and is best reached through aggregators like HN or /r/programming. Another example is online courses, that are not casually watched.

On the other hand, some important topics are aimed at a general audience: news, politics, scientific popularization, infotainment, entertainment… People don’t actively seek out those things, they stumble upon them and select what they like… with the help of the "algorithm".

Whether that’s a good thing is another matter. The way YouTube works is eerily close to doom-scrolling, and I’ve lost a lot of time there. My point is, to even have a chance of reaching a general audience, right now the algorithm and people’s behaviour is such that the only place is YouTube.

Now I’m not saying that everyone deserves to reach a wide audience. For one that’s flat out impossible (10 minutes watched by 100K people means over 13 years of total watching time), and most content is either niche or crap anyway. High quality content however, that makes a positive impact on the world (for instance by helping, informing, or entertaining people), does deserve a chance.

Does it deserve any particular way to the top? No, of course not. But I do submit they deserve at least a fair chance of being widely watched. And right now, again, that only chance comes from YouTube.

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As for what we should do about it, I see two routes. One is regulation. We could officially recognise that YouTube basically holds the only meaningful key to an important kind of public discourse, such that any video they refuse to show is effectively censored. This makes them a public utility, and should be treated as such. I’m not sure what that should entail for the search & suggestion algorithms, but it sure means that taking down a video is an infringement on Free Speech, and so should be approved by a judge.

Yeah, that will never work out. Too many videos to process, not enough judges. So I think we’d much better take another route, if at all possible: find a way to severely reduce YouTube’s market share, and have actual competition between many platforms. That way if someone is kicked out of one platform, they can still use another. Or we could expand self hosting, or multiply the PeerTube instances…

What I absolutely do not want (though unfortunately it looks like we’re headed there), is the kind of regulation where YouTube is mandated to filter videos, in such a way that the only solution is an unsustainable level of automation with lots of false positives, no due process, and no way to appeal (like right now in fact, only it’s official).

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A better regulatory route would be giving platforms a clear choice: either behave as a utility, which means utter neutrality: no integrated search or suggestions unless it’s demonstrably neutral, no filtering, and no arbitrary take down; on the upside, if they happen to host illegal content, they’re not responsible until a judge tells them to shut it down.

Or, retain the biased searches and suggestions (they do have value), all the filtering they want, arbitrary take downs and bans… but then they are treated as editors, and become responsible for everything that happens on their turf. If someone manages to publish some illegal content, they are penally responsible and may in extreme cases go to prison.

Either you’re a carrier, or you’re an editor. Under that rule, YouTube would either become a mere host, at which point we don’t even care about their market dominance (though I suspect their market share would drop as they’re deprived of most of their network effects); or they would become an editor, and that’s so unscaleable they’d need to shrink like hell to be sustainable. And again, they’d lose market share and we’d get the diversity that is needed to make sure that being banned from one platform is in practice very different from actual censorship.

Re: The Crime of Curiosity

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember that within the first year of covid, "masks work" was considered misinformation No, because that never happened. Maybe don’t spread misinformation yourself if you want to make a point.

Yes, he did. From [1]: > "The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out virus, which is small enough to pass through material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in keep out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you." > He added: "I do not recommend that you wear a mask, particularly since you are going to a very low risk location." > Fauci has previously been…

To the first point, isn't this still true? Unless I missed something, N-95s/respirators are the only way to protect yourself, wearing the cloth/surgical masks is a way to prevent yourself, who may be asymptomatic, from spreading the disease and NOT to protect yourself from someone who you are in contact with who has it.

To the second point, if I am recalling correctly this was in part due to the fact that we were undergoing as massive supply shortage. I distinctly remember my roommates (healthcare workers) being told to keep their N-95s in a brown paper bag and to reuse it.

To the third point, everyone is a critic and everyone is bound to make mistakes in a rapidly evolving situation. Given the fact that front-line folks had to re-use (Read: already contaminated and unsafe for use) masks given the supply issues, I'm not so sure he was wrong in advising the general public to hold off.

Re: The Crime of Curiosity

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if a video is not on YouTube, it will not reach a wide audience. But that's not because of any technological issue with watching videos hosted anywhere else. There are absolutely zero technological obstacles to people watching videos elsewhere. The reason it doesn't reach a wide audience is because of "the algorithm" (or rather, two algorithms): 1. the one that YT uses to put possible videos for you to watch in fro…

OK we need a bit of nuance there: I do reckon there are many niches that don’t need to cater to a general audience to begin with. Specialised conferences on InfoQ are a good example: their audience is very specific, and is best reached through aggregators like HN or /r/programming. Another example is online courses, that are not casually watched. On the other hand, some important topics are aimed at a general audienc…

1) I think that YT could make a legitimate case that its recommendation algorithm is neutral (assuming that it's not actually biased by backroom payments etc.). That is to say: it doesn't represent any point of view about anything, and simply tries to show a user "more videos related to the one you're watching". The devil, of course, is in the details of what "related" means.

2) I don't agree that not-on-YT means no wide audience. If I have 2M twitter followers, and I post a link to a video on (say) Vimeo with a sufficiently click-baity description, that video is going to get "a wide audience" (or at least, a large one). There are ways of alerting people to a video's existence beyond YT's own algorithm. The original (hah!) meaning of "went viral" didn't mean "YT recommended it to lots of people and they all clicked". It meant "link got shared by lots of people in an ever-expanding tree of contacts". That can still happen.

3) What's hard are the videos that fall in between the cracks. Not "my kid's 3rd birthday party singalong from last week", and not "the latest video from whomever the current k-pop phenom is". Videos that get, say, 200,000 - 2M views.

4) It's unclear how much view counts on YT are impacted by channel subscriptions vs the algorithm right now. Supposing for a moment that they are heavily correlated with subscriptions, YT could drop the algorithm and not see gigantic shifts in view counts. But I have no idea whether that's true, and I can think of lots of reasons why it may not be. A service that only shows/points you at videos from channels you've subscribed too is radically different from the YT of today.

Re: The Crime of Curiosity

#210
post #2

I don't understand this social platforms. Covid stuff and fake news aside, I reported maybe 20 times obvious scam videos, or posts with extreme hatred and threats of violence against a group of people and similar stuff where 99.99999% of us would agree that it should be removed without question, and only once they did remove it. All the other times I get a message that they reviewed my complaint, that it does not go…

All social media companies are 100% evil. They are the "bad guys". They are pro-totalitarian, pro-collectivist. They are what has always been wrong with humanity - those who embrace evil.

If you work for these companies and don't quit for simple ethical and moral reasons, YOU are part of the problem and aiding and abetting evil!

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