Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem

#41

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

SonicScrub wrote: post #26

CubsFan1060 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true. But that's everyone. I've yet to meet a single person who is willing to make the personal sacrifices needed to actually help the world. You get a bunch of normal people (i.e. 'peasants' if you wish) sitting around talking about how to save the environment while eating fruit grown in a faraway land and trucked to them in a refrigerated truck. Everyone wants to say the solution is that other people should…

That's the whole problem isn't? The actions of any individual, or even the actions of everyone in a small-to-medium sized nation are just too small on their own to mark significant change. Too many people aren't willing to accept this simple fact: the standard of living in the cushy societies of the Western middle class is completely and utterly unsustainable. And probably never will be. Avoiding environmental degrad…

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem

#42

Post by hypertele-Xii » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #19

Completely pales next to something as egregious as disposable tech that sells in the millions and only has a lifespan of 2 years tops like AirPods. They will still be washing up on beaches 100 years after every single person involved in their design has passed. Whole electronics industry needs to take this stuff more seriously, we need more replaceable batteries and storage, right to repair on a global level and laws…

As right as you are, that's besides the point. Bitcoin is waste. Pointing at other, more wasteful sources, is besides the point. Abolish both!

Re: Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem

#43

Post by CubsFan1060 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

SonicScrub wrote: post #26

CubsFan1060 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true. But that's everyone. I've yet to meet a single person who is willing to make the personal sacrifices needed to actually help the world. You get a bunch of normal people (i.e. 'peasants' if you wish) sitting around talking about how to save the environment while eating fruit grown in a faraway land and trucked to them in a refrigerated truck. Everyone wants to say the solution is that other people should…

That's the whole problem isn't? The actions of any individual, or even the actions of everyone in a small-to-medium sized nation are just too small on their own to mark significant change. Too many people aren't willing to accept this simple fact: the standard of living in the cushy societies of the Western middle class is completely and utterly unsustainable. And probably never will be. Avoiding environmental degrad…

I agree with the last part. There is a huge amount of moral licensing as well (I recycled this cardboard box, so flying to Aruba is ok).

But I think both collectively and individually we are unwilling to make the required sacrifices. You're right, the actions of one person don't make a significant change, but they do make some change. If everyone who said they were deeply concerned about the environment started to make the changes that are required, we'd start to make a dent. And perhaps have a larger effect than themselves.

But they won't. We're all mostly just hoping that massive change doesn't happen until after we die.

Re: Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem

#44

Post by mumblemumble » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

simonw wrote: post #23

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #19

Completely pales next to something as egregious as disposable tech that sells in the millions and only has a lifespan of 2 years tops like AirPods. They will still be washing up on beaches 100 years after every single person involved in their design has passed. Whole electronics industry needs to take this stuff more seriously, we need more replaceable batteries and storage, right to repair on a global level and laws…

You really think that AirPods are a larger cause of e-waste than dedicated Bitcoin mining equipment? Or are you comparing dedicate mining equipment to all consumer technology combined?

It sounds to me like the scope of criticism was right in between the two things you're suggesting: "disposable tech that sells in the millions and only has a lifespan of 2 years tops like AirPods."

In this case, I would take take the word "like" to mean "such as". Your first potential interpretation instead implies that you interpreted it to mean "specifically". And the second ignores all the qualifying adjectives.

For my part, I'm becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the dominance of products with built-in, non-replaceable rechargeable batteries in products that don't permit or are fundamentally incompatible with corded use. Because if a fundamental component that it needs in order to function happens to also be a non-replaceable wear item, then yeah, it is a disposable product. As a point of basic morality, we should not be blithely making disposable products that cannot be safely disposed of. It doesn't matter how convenient it is to us, our kids and our grandkids and our peers in less wealthy countries and their kids and grandkids are the ones who will be stuck dealing with the polluted waterways, and we have no right to force that upon them just because we think cords are annoying.

It's really not so different from the leaded gasoline that my grandparents thought was so convenient.

Re: Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem

#45

Post by DonHopkins » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #32

unnouinceput wrote: post #7

This reminds me of that tweet from BP about their environment calculator, can't find the source right now. But the idea is they "care" about environment while they did the biggest oil spillage in history, otherwise known as the old proverbial: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_bla... Do I really need to point who is the biggest e-waste generator in the world? Solve that problem first.

> Solve that problem first. What’s “that problem”? It’s not clear from your post. We always seem to go in circles with whataboutism when posts like this appear: “X is a bigger problem so let’s solve that”. We can do this for every problem — look at the data through the right lens and another problem is always bigger - and never solve anything.

And why is the entire sum total of humanity only capable of solving one problem at once?

Re: Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem

#46

Post by nico_h » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

plater wrote: post #29

unnouinceput wrote: post #7

This reminds me of that tweet from BP about their environment calculator, can't find the source right now. But the idea is they "care" about environment while they did the biggest oil spillage in history, otherwise known as the old proverbial: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_bla... Do I really need to point who is the biggest e-waste generator in the world? Solve that problem first.

The thing is, we complain about the oil companies and at the same time we take the car to go to work, shopping, etc. It's also the consumers who are using the oil, not only the oil companies, who are to blame at the end. If no one buys, no one will produce. Sure, if it's cheap and readily available, people will use it no matter how bad it is. That's why it's so important that the governments increase the taxes on oil…

Well it would be nice if they could stop lobbying against emission standards and stop campaigning to undermine climate change and environmental activism.

Re: Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem

#47

Post by larrik » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

rattlesnakedave wrote: post #39

moritonal wrote: post #12

I'm starting to get irate now with the hypocrisy of some who talk about how the Government need to be more green, but then follow up with "oh my bitcoin worth's gone through the roof!"

I'm starting to grow irate with the weekly "bitcoin is killing the enivornment" HN FUD threads from people that use AWS.

Okay, I'll bite. How are those at all comparable?

Re: Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem

#48

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #25

One bullet point says: "On average Bitcoin generates 272 g of e-waste per transaction processed on the blockchain." So transactions on exchanges are less wasteful? A deposit from wallet to exchange generates the same pollution? Or is it "only" mined transactions? Does the transaction size matter?

Transactions on exchanges are "free" because they don't use the blockchain - the single distinctive feature of bitcoin. Exchange accounts are equivalent to brokerage accounts, or uninsured bank accounts.

Re: Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem

#49

Post by moritonal » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

araio wrote: post #30

moritonal wrote: post #12

I'm starting to get irate now with the hypocrisy of some who talk about how the Government need to be more green, but then follow up with "oh my bitcoin worth's gone through the roof!"

I'm starting to get irate now with the hypocrisy of some who talk about how the Government need to be more green, but then follow up with Windows N+1, Android N+1 or iOS N+1.

Swapping to use Kubuntu was a breath of fresh air, never heard a laptop be quieter. I'd recommend it to anyone.

Re: Bitcoin's growing e-waste problem

#50

Post by Uberphallus » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

api wrote: post #14

988747 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't that somewhat against the whole idea of PoW? It is supposed to make cheating expensive, because you have to waste a lot of computing power to do it. If that power is not wasted, but instead used for something useful (outside of crypto transaction verification) work that can be sold for money, then cheating becomes profitable again.

Pick something useful that has low monetary value on the open market, like number theory problems or protein folding or something. I could imagine the RandomX code execution approach being re-worked to incorporate useful scientific computation, and this being worked into the currency itself. It might be possible for people to stake money on compute units and then have the money go to the miner who solves a block in p…

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