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For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#31

Post by rich_sasha »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #10

As a student I used to obsess over university rankings, but I realize now that most of them are massively gamed. My alma mater, the UPMC (Université Pierre et Marie Curie) e.g. merged with other universities in Paris to form the Sorbonne University, mostly to move up in the worldwide ranking. So, it's still largely the same university with the same funding and the same chairs, but since it's bundled up in a larger pa…

+1

Also, if you want the university's reputation to boost your CV, these things change over time. So the "brownie points" of "my university is top of a ranking" may not last very long.

So pick somewhere reputable that will give you a good education and don't obsess about rankings.

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#32

Post by jna_sh »

arethuza wrote: post #21
jna_sh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two most common usages of “college” in UK education are: - pre-university education for 16-18 year olds. This is where you complete qualifications for university entry, such as A Levels, Scottish Highers, or the IB, as well as more vocationally aligned qualifications like BTEC or NVQ. This stage of education used to be optional but recently became compulsory. - institutions within a larger university umbrella. Th…

"UK education" Nitpick: not all of the UK uses A-levels.

Apologies, a good nitpick! Particularly since the thread is for St Andrews so the Scottish Highers are definitely worth mentioning :)

The international baccalaureate is also becoming more widely available.

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#33

Post by raesene9 »

bencollier49 wrote: post #7
eptcyka wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind you, these are not colleges, these are universities. Colleges are not as highly esteemed in the UK.

They're basically a different thing in the UK, I think. At the risk of stereotyping, they're where you go to get vocational qualifications (further, as opposed to higher, education).

There is a slight naming clash though, for some institutions such as Cambridge and Oxford, where Cambridge university (for example) is made up of a number of colleges https://map.cam.ac.uk/colleges/

This is not the same as an independent institution which is a college (for example Cambridge regional college https://www.camre.ac.uk/)

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#34

Post by blitzar »

mettamage wrote: post #28
ThePhysicist wrote: post #10

As a student I used to obsess over university rankings, but I realize now that most of them are massively gamed. My alma mater, the UPMC (Université Pierre et Marie Curie) e.g. merged with other universities in Paris to form the Sorbonne University, mostly to move up in the worldwide ranking. So, it's still largely the same university with the same funding and the same chairs, but since it's bundled up in a larger pa…

> IMHO, as a PhD student, what really matters is not how well your university is ranked but how well your research group is organized and how much the people there support you. I've noticed this as well and I'm not even a PhD student! For example, the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam doesn't rank super high. Yet, when I look at their cyber security department, then they're top notch. In most cases though, industry doesn'…

That is more of a case of Department than group being highly ranked.

Department reputation in the field is very important, particularly how they are seen by industry.

> well your research group is organized and how much the people there support you.

Controversial perhaps, but when academics are being dicks, nobody ever calls them out on it, academics close ranks and protect their own. Students come and go, professors are there for life.

If there are issues with ones research group, there is no support. Chose wisely, but it is hard to know in advance what sort of environment there really is and how things will really play out.

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#36

Post by SiempreViernes »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #10

As a student I used to obsess over university rankings, but I realize now that most of them are massively gamed. My alma mater, the UPMC (Université Pierre et Marie Curie) e.g. merged with other universities in Paris to form the Sorbonne University, mostly to move up in the worldwide ranking. So, it's still largely the same university with the same funding and the same chairs, but since it's bundled up in a larger pa…

On the other hand, the fact there were so many different universities in Paris in the late 20th century was also pretty artificial: De Gaulle got sick of all these spicy students having opinions and split the whole thing up.

But it's all just rather arbitrary rankings of rather arbitrary social constructions anyway, and as you say it's not that helpful for making accurate decisions for where you should apply anyway as what really matters is your supervisor and the support from the administration.

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#38

Post by notahacker »

bencollier49 wrote: post #3

Due to student satisfaction. It should be noted that Scottish students don't pay (significant) tuition fees.

Recent student satisfaction is also going to be heavily influenced by Covid. It's not difficult to imagine that Oxbridge students are less satisfied with many of their interactions with professors being moved online than students at other universities...

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#39

Post by blitzar »

bsd44 wrote: post #11

I am looking at their document* explaining methodology behind the ranking criteria and I am still to understand which of those indicate quality of programme. All five sections revolve around research and the data is collected mostly from Elsevier. So St Andrews outranks Oxbridge for the first time. Outranks in what? What does "best" mean? I think these rankings should better explain in the title what they indicate. I…

> Outranks in what?

Being the 'best'

> What does "best" mean?

Better than the others

How do we know who is the best? - The Times Univesity Rankings.

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#40

Post by bencollier49 »

raesene9 wrote: post #33
bencollier49 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're basically a different thing in the UK, I think. At the risk of stereotyping, they're where you go to get vocational qualifications (further, as opposed to higher, education).

There is a slight naming clash though, for some institutions such as Cambridge and Oxford, where Cambridge university (for example) is made up of a number of colleges https://map.cam.ac.uk/colleges/ This is not the same as an independent institution which is a college (for example Cambridge regional college https://www.camre.ac.uk/ )

Good point. The collegiate universities are a different matter.
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