For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge • Hacker News Board

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#11

Post by bsd44 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:47 AM UTC

I am looking at their document* explaining methodology behind the ranking criteria and I am still to understand which of those indicate quality of programme. All five sections revolve around research and the data is collected mostly from Elsevier.

So St Andrews outranks Oxbridge for the first time. Outranks in what? What does "best" mean? I think these rankings should better explain in the title what they indicate. It seems to me they compete in prestige and not quality of teaching which is what prospective students look for.

All programmes in the country are standardised and cover the same required topics, so the only major difference there can be is the way these topics are presented to students. The research game is separate from the teaching entirely and shouldn't be considered as an indication of anything in the undergraduate realm.

* https://www.timeshighereducation.com/sites/default/files/bre...

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#12

Post by johnday » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:51 AM UTC

eptcyka wrote: post #4

jack_riminton wrote: post #2

Whenever a rankings table comes out with a result like this it probably succeeds in selling some papers, but it also diminishes the esteem of the rankings table I'm sure that St Andrews is a brilliant college. But very few in academia would say its as brilliant as Oxbridge

Mind you, these are not colleges, these are universities. Colleges are not as highly esteemed in the UK.

To be precise, colleges are usually sixth-form colleges for 16-18 year olds.

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#13

Post by Stevvo » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:52 AM UTC

jack_riminton wrote: post #2

Whenever a rankings table comes out with a result like this it probably succeeds in selling some papers, but it also diminishes the esteem of the rankings table I'm sure that St Andrews is a brilliant college. But very few in academia would say its as brilliant as Oxbridge

So should they fudge the numbers to maintain the "esteem of the rankings table"?

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#14

Post by n4r9 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:53 AM UTC

cinntaile wrote: post #8

eptcyka wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind you, these are not colleges, these are universities. Colleges are not as highly esteemed in the UK.

Imperial College London has a pretty good rep, no? Even when compared to most universities in the UK?

Despite its name, it is considered a university.

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#15

Post by chrisseaton » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:54 AM UTC

jack_riminton wrote: post #2

Whenever a rankings table comes out with a result like this it probably succeeds in selling some papers, but it also diminishes the esteem of the rankings table I'm sure that St Andrews is a brilliant college. But very few in academia would say its as brilliant as Oxbridge

> I'm sure that St Andrews is a brilliant college.

It's not a 'college' at all.

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#16

Post by acta_non_verba » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:55 AM UTC

cinntaile wrote: post #8

eptcyka wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind you, these are not colleges, these are universities. Colleges are not as highly esteemed in the UK.

Imperial College London has a pretty good rep, no? Even when compared to most universities in the UK?

Imperial college is just a part of the university of London.

Like many words in the UK, sometimes “college” is used in a more historical meaning

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#17

Post by arethuza » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:55 AM UTC

bsd44 wrote: post #11

I am looking at their document* explaining methodology behind the ranking criteria and I am still to understand which of those indicate quality of programme. All five sections revolve around research and the data is collected mostly from Elsevier. So St Andrews outranks Oxbridge for the first time. Outranks in what? What does "best" mean? I think these rankings should better explain in the title what they indicate. I…

"All programmes in the country are standardised and cover the same required topics, so the only major difference there can be is the way these topics are presented to students"

Undergraduate degree courses being standardised - since when? We don't even have the same high school level courses and exams across the UK...

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#18

Post by n4r9 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:55 AM UTC

bencollier49 wrote: post #9

BoxOfRain wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you're Scottish though, if you're English, Welsh, or Northern Irish you still have to pay full fees.

Good point, but with 30% of the students there from Scotland (more than three times the UK population average), I'm guessing it's a factor in satisfaction ratings.

As a former lecturer, I found that student satisfaction often came down to things like how "easy" the lectures are. Big name universities like Oxford traditionally haven't (until recently?) felt the pressure to hit these objectives since they can ride on their reputation.

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#19

Post by jna_sh » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:57 AM UTC

eptcyka wrote: post #4

jack_riminton wrote: post #2

Whenever a rankings table comes out with a result like this it probably succeeds in selling some papers, but it also diminishes the esteem of the rankings table I'm sure that St Andrews is a brilliant college. But very few in academia would say its as brilliant as Oxbridge

Mind you, these are not colleges, these are universities. Colleges are not as highly esteemed in the UK.

The two most common usages of “college” in UK education are:

  - pre-university education for 16-18 year olds. This is where you complete qualifications for university entry, such as A Levels, Scottish Highers, or the IB, as well as more vocationally aligned qualifications like BTEC or NVQ. This stage of education used to be optional but recently became compulsory.
  - institutions within a larger university umbrella. This includes the colleges of Oxford, Cambridge and Durham. For example, Jesus College of the University of Oxford or Magdalene College of the University of Cambridge. Very few UK universities use a college system, it is mostly a historical legacy seen in very old universities.

Another reply mentions Imperial College London: many of the London universities are colleges of the University of London, but I think this system is mostly so they can share/issue one University of London degree, and that they don’t have the same degree of centralised administration that the Oxbridge college system does.

EDIT: updated to reflect that A levels aren’t the only pre-university qualification in the UK

Re: For the first time in history, St Andrews outranks Oxbridge

#20

Post by cinntaile » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:59 AM UTC

acta_non_verba wrote: post #16

cinntaile wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imperial College London has a pretty good rep, no? Even when compared to most universities in the UK?

Imperial college is just a part of the university of London. Like many words in the UK, sometimes “college” is used in a more historical meaning

It's not a part of the university of London anymore.

But this is semantics really, apparently the GP meant a very specific type of college but didn't communicate this and colleges that are universities under the hood aren't part of that unstated definition.