Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin • Hacker News Board

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#71

Post by avianlyric » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:00 AM UTC

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #42

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #4

Apple’s acquiescence to the Russian government’s demand to remove this app was predicted when it first came to light. Exactly at the same time as Apple was assuring world+dog that it would never acquiesce to governmental pressure to extend and expand the scope of its CSAM scanning tool on user’s devices.

Have they ever explained why the csam would be implemented? Apple bends just fine if the government is powerful enough and the marketplace is big enough, see China.

In their defence (I say this with some trepidation), if they want to see their products in another country, then they need to play by that countries rules. Regardless of how we in the west feel about those rules.

If a Chinese company came to the US or EU and ignored US or EU rules and lawful directives from government, we would quite rightly be up in arms about that.

With regards to CSAM, I think the same applies. After all the CSAM issue only exists because the US government has decided that invasive monitoring is the only way to counter CSAM.

I note that no other western country takes such an authoritarian approach to CSAM, an approach that seems to be primarily driving by evangelist Christian keen on outlawing sex in general. As oppose to actually helping victims of CSAM.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#72

Post by avaika » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:05 AM UTC

toshk wrote: post #31

Interesting they made an app in the first place, can they move the activity to a website, maybe multiple domains?

They won't be able to effectively advertise it. In Russia websites can be blocked without court right away. Means as quick as some domain reaches at least some notable traffic it will be blocked. And in this case cat will be winning the mouse. Cause mouse won't effectively reach the audience.

That's also the reason why Navalny's team is heavily utilizing public resources backed by big tech (e.g. Google docs, Appspot, etc) with a hope that big tech won't ban the team and Russian government won't be brave enough to block the entire platform.

Also a couple words about resource blocking: every ISP is obliged by law to install some kind of DPI solution to block traffic. And the solution sadly became much more efficient in recent months than it was years ago.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#73

Post by Arech » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:06 AM UTC

elephantum wrote: post #69

The thing is, that it's all very time-sensitive. And I expect pressure was unreasonably high. We have elections in Russia this weekend and Navalny app was used as a tool to coordinate protest voting. It is called "Smart Voting" by Navalny team and it is getting a lot of attention for upcomping elections. If Apple and Google would just be a little bit slower and complied next Monday :) Still there are more ways to coo…

Please don't call it elections. Nothing even close.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#74

Post by hypothesis » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:09 AM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #71

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have they ever explained why the csam would be implemented? Apple bends just fine if the government is powerful enough and the marketplace is big enough, see China.

In their defence (I say this with some trepidation), if they want to see their products in another country, then they need to play by that countries rules. Regardless of how we in the west feel about those rules. If a Chinese company came to the US or EU and ignored US or EU rules and lawful directives from government, we would quite rightly be up in arms about that. With regards to CSAM, I think the same applies. Af…

Following laws in countries that one is operating is expected.

However, following laws that contradict one’s marketing materials will lead to some understandable questions about those “values”.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#75

Post by Grustaf » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:12 AM UTC

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #42

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #4

Apple’s acquiescence to the Russian government’s demand to remove this app was predicted when it first came to light. Exactly at the same time as Apple was assuring world+dog that it would never acquiesce to governmental pressure to extend and expand the scope of its CSAM scanning tool on user’s devices.

Have they ever explained why the csam would be implemented? Apple bends just fine if the government is powerful enough and the marketplace is big enough, see China.

Perhaps they don't want people to use their devices for child abuse? Radical idea I know.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#76

Post by mithron » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:12 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #18

There's no way Apple or any company to act as an extralegal entity in another country. Every time something like that comes up, I'm baffled by the expectation that an American company will impose the American values or American laws in another country. Back in the day when the internet felt like international thing not bound by any local laws, that was possible to some degrees but legislators caught up with it. It is…

Google and Apple were and still are not complying with Russian laws in many cases [1][2][3][4]. It's being fined and threatened in Russia. So it's not that they comply or not. It's just that they are very picky on when to comply and when not to.

[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-apple-google-fine-threat... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/17/russia-asks-google-and-apple... [3] https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/05/24/russia-gives-googl... [4] https://archive.is/1TbdB

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#77

Post by dmantis » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:12 AM UTC

loxias wrote: post #55

(Based on reading just one article, I've never seen or used the app) Seems like all the app did was serve as list of candidates, 225 electoral districts long, and a map from street address to electoral district. Surely this can be trivially implemented as a website, in a matter of hours, no? It looks like the mistake Navalny's team made was trusting one method of distribution of information. Even worse, trusting a me…

It is implemented as website, but blocked by regular DPI censorship mechanisms deployed in Russia.

They started a blocking campaign against popular VPN providers as well before elections, making it harder for older and less tech-savvy people to access information from the opposition.

I guess that apps have implemented some routing and device caching mechanisms to ensure more user-friendly approach for "regular" people who don't want to spend too much time figuring out how to avoid censorship.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#78

Post by Grustaf » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

How would people would feel if there were Chinese backed apps in the AppStore that were used for tactical voting in the US presidential elections? With the express purpose to aid a specific candidate.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#79

Post by Arech » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:19 AM UTC

loxias wrote: post #55

(Based on reading just one article, I've never seen or used the app) Seems like all the app did was serve as list of candidates, 225 electoral districts long, and a map from street address to electoral district. Surely this can be trivially implemented as a website, in a matter of hours, no? It looks like the mistake Navalny's team made was trusting one method of distribution of information. Even worse, trusting a me…

Aaah, what a great example of sofa advisor...

What makes you think they didn't try?

Their websites were blocked long before the regime started to name FBK as extrimists and they switched to apps particularly because apps is harder to block. They probably just didn't expect google&apple to become so much accommodating so quickly.

One of the reasons why they did what they did is because the regime said they would take the local staff as hostages if they'll fail to comply (aka "the staff is responsible for the law breaches made by the company").

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#80

Post by lovasoa » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:20 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #57

lovasoa wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom from oppression is not an American value, and Americans need to stop thinking that. It is a universal value, cherished by people all over the world, including in Russia. The russian people is being taken advantage of by a small oligarchy that steals their resources, and the app that Google and Apple removed was supposed to help them transition to more democracy during the upcoming elections. The outrage is pe…

If there's something that Russians don't like, they need to fix it themselves. You should Google Afghanistan, or pretty much any Middle-Eastern country that was liberated by the Americans. See how well it ended.

They are fixing it themselves. And in the process of fixing it, they made an app. Google and Apple prevented the distribution of this app.