Live data from Hacker News

Facebook under fire over secret teen research

bbc.co.uk

211–220 of 226 posts

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true. However, most A/B testing doesn't result in an academic paper, and there are strict ethical rules about academic work based on human subjects. Second, obviously not all A/B tests are the same. If you're testing two different fonts and comparing bounce rates, there are far fewer ethical concerns than if you're intentionally spreading an "emotional contagion" (that's the term Facebook used). And note that…

There is nuance to this. The point of IRB is ethics. 1. If the experiment is minimal risk and expected to benefit participants (as the notorious fb experiment was—it was emotional contagion of positive emotions), then informed consent may be waived. 2. When there is a greater risk from the act of gathering informed consent (e.g., because you need to store identity for that purpose), then informed consent may be waive…

> as the notorious fb experiment was—it was emotional contagion of positive emotions

No, they tried both positive and negative.

> When positive expressions were reduced, people produced fewer positive posts and more negative posts; when negative expressions were reduced, the opposite pattern occurred.

> If affective states are contagious via verbal expressions on Facebook (our operationalization of emotional contagion), people in the positivity-reduced condition should be less positive compared with their control, and people in the negativity-reduced condition should be less negative.

- https://www.pnas.org/content/111/24/8788.full

The experiment was expected to make half of the subjects less positive.

Edit: This discussion of whether consent could be waived is sort of irrelevant when Facebook didn't even have an IRB at the time, and Cornell's IRB inexplicably declined to review the study even though two of the authors were part of Cornell.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nuance to this. The point of IRB is ethics. 1. If the experiment is minimal risk and expected to benefit participants (as the notorious fb experiment was—it was emotional contagion of positive emotions), then informed consent may be waived. 2. When there is a greater risk from the act of gathering informed consent (e.g., because you need to store identity for that purpose), then informed consent may be waive…

> as the notorious fb experiment was—it was emotional contagion of positive emotions No, they tried both positive and negative. > When positive expressions were reduced, people produced fewer positive posts and more negative posts; when negative expressions were reduced, the opposite pattern occurred. > If affective states are contagious via verbal expressions on Facebook (our operationalization of emotional contagio…

You are correct. Mea culpa.

I still find it challenging that it would be completely acceptable for Facebook to run private A/B tests with the same variables to optimizing advertising revenue but the unethical part is making it public after peer review.

I guess i just don't get or agree with the ethics of that situation.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as the notorious fb experiment was—it was emotional contagion of positive emotions No, they tried both positive and negative. > When positive expressions were reduced, people produced fewer positive posts and more negative posts; when negative expressions were reduced, the opposite pattern occurred. > If affective states are contagious via verbal expressions on Facebook (our operationalization of emotional contagio…

You are correct. Mea culpa. I still find it challenging that it would be completely acceptable for Facebook to run private A/B tests with the same variables to optimizing advertising revenue but the unethical part is making it public after peer review. I guess i just don't get or agree with the ethics of that situation.

It absolutely is not acceptable to do this without publishing it, although obviously they do it anyway. Imagine if you worked at Facebook and your boss said "Hey can you crank up the negativity on everyone's feed for a few days and then track their emotions? Pretty sure it's gonna make them all angrier, but I want to be certain." You would refuse, because that's obviously unethical. Maybe doing it for published research makes the engineers more likely to go along with it, I don't know.

I guess the main point is that just because there wasn't much negative PR about this before Facebook published their study, that doesn't mean what they were doing was acceptable, it just means most people didn't know it was happening. And experimenting on people without consent in order to enrich yourself has always been and will always be unethical, no matter how many people make their living that way.

One more thing I'm thinking about: sometimes people compare this kind of A/B test to, for example, a supermarket rearranging items on the shelves to maximize purchases. I think there are important differences, although still some ethical concerns. With a supermarket you don't need to interact with or even know about the existence of the shoppers, you can just arrange the store and then monitor sales. More importantly, (I hope) supermarkets aren't running these tests with the expectation of harming anyone. The equivalent of the Facebook study would be putting the unhealthiest products in convenient places and then monitoring customers to see if they gain weight.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#214
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TikTok is a much more positive platform than anything Facebook has come up with TBH. Almost all of the creators I follow are just... normal people, making normal jokes and doing normal things. They aren't heavily airbrushed or photo/videoshopped or whatever. The content itself is generally much more positive and much more focused around acceptance and (body-)positivity. As far as social media platforms go, TikTok is…

If you are too ugly, the CCP will hide you from other users on TikTok! [0] [0] https://www.pcmag.com/news/tiktok-censored-ugly-poor-or-disa...

Outdated, they stopped this long ago.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because the TikTok algorithm is feeding you what you value. Whereas for people with different values, maybe people with certain insecurities that are in the process of change (mainly adolescents) they might be drawn to people that have what they lack just like any other social media platform. TikTok is incredible, in my opinion, it really is the best content-delivery platform... but that is actually quite dange…

TikTok feeding us what we apparently value is its biggest danger. When people out of mere curiosity watch something biased/misrepresented/discriminatory/extreme and interact with that content, irrespective of whether all their opinions at that moment of time are the same as that of the content they watched, the algorithm will aggressively push similar content onto you, and there will definitely be a few who fall into…

Have you actually used the app? This is absolutely not how it works. You aren't shoved down rabbit holes like with YouTube.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#216
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TikTok shows you precisely what you want to see, whether it's simple and funny staged videos or something more intellectually engaging.

Does it show you precisely what you want to see? Or just what you're most likely to engage with? I feel like there's an important distinction there.

The former, which is why people use it. It shows you what you want to see and will genuinely enjoy seeing.

That is why TikTok is more popular than platforms that only focus on engagement, because those platforms will show content that you will engage with even if it's in frustration.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#217
post #20

I'm open to new thoughts on this but this seems like Facebook is being used a scapegoat. What would be a viable solution to this problem?

> any evidence this is something intrinsic to Instagram as a platform That the kids are specifically calling out Instagram and not, say, flikr or Twitter, is a big hint. Believe what the kids are telling you.

I'm sure the kids were specifically asked if Instagram was causing any issues for them and I imagine the rest of the internet has a direct impact on their feelings not just Facebook

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. Mea culpa. I still find it challenging that it would be completely acceptable for Facebook to run private A/B tests with the same variables to optimizing advertising revenue but the unethical part is making it public after peer review. I guess i just don't get or agree with the ethics of that situation.

It absolutely is not acceptable to do this without publishing it, although obviously they do it anyway. Imagine if you worked at Facebook and your boss said "Hey can you crank up the negativity on everyone's feed for a few days and then track their emotions? Pretty sure it's gonna make them all angrier, but I want to be certain." You would refuse, because that's obviously unethical. Maybe doing it for published resea…

I guess you really don't like the advertisement and UX design industry, then! I mean, there is an endless stream of human experimentation...

What should we do about it? I personally think it is better to run the experiments in public so we understand, but i can get why you might disagree. But i would like to know what you think the policy should be.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely is not acceptable to do this without publishing it, although obviously they do it anyway. Imagine if you worked at Facebook and your boss said "Hey can you crank up the negativity on everyone's feed for a few days and then track their emotions? Pretty sure it's gonna make them all angrier, but I want to be certain." You would refuse, because that's obviously unethical. Maybe doing it for published resea…

I guess you really don't like the advertisement and UX design industry, then! I mean, there is an endless stream of human experimentation... What should we do about it? I personally think it is better to run the experiments in public so we understand, but i can get why you might disagree. But i would like to know what you think the policy should be.

Yes I strongly dislike the advertising industry. UX designers I don't have a problem with - they often use informed consent ("check out our new design!"), and as far as I know they don't usually run intentionally harmful experiments. I'm not sure how they could, Facebook is in a somewhat unique position there as it's so embedded in some people's lives.

I'm not sure there's really a policy solution, I think any law that made what Facebook does illegal would also make a million other legitimate activities illegal. It's good that Facebook was shamed into apologizing and creating some kind of internal review board, society at large did a great job making that happen, and we should keep that up. Maybe journals can institute better policies about not publishing unethical studies so they don't legitimize and encourage this behavior.

Note that it's not a choice between "Facebook does everything in secret" or "Facebook publishes all its research". Even if there had been no consequences for the emotional contagion study, Facebook would still keep most research internal, just like the tobacco industry buried cancer studies or the oil industry buried climate change research.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd see a picture of a blackend facebook lung every time you launched the website

Along with a Surgeon General’s health warning banner on all UX

Government Warning: (1) According to the Surgeon General, people should not pursue "likes" as it may lead to mental health defects. (2) Consumption of social media impairs your ability to drive a car or operate machinery and may cause social problems.
Post reply on HN