Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American • Hacker News Board

Re: Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American

#381

Post by LeifCarrotson » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

floatingatoll wrote: post #340

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Floatingatoll said "It's not futile to reconsider conventions". This shows that's not a complete sentence, suggesting that you added a caveat or other clause. Also, your preceding paragraph highlights another issue: what if the sentence being quoted has different punctuation than the sentence it's placed in? You wrote a sentence that should end in a question mark, but the quote should end with a period.

So, when a quoted sentence fragment terminates a sentence, the period should be outside? > Blah blah "Quoted sentence in entirety." versus > Blah blah "Quoted sentence fragment".

Exactly, that's the rule in British style. In American style, the period goes inside in both cases.

Re: Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American

#382

Post by chrstphrknwtn » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #376

_abox wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, us Dutch get taught British English at school so it makes sense for us even in English.

Most non-native speakers don't really use "British" or "American" English anyway, but rather a mixture of both, not infrequently unaware that a particular word or phrase belongs to one or the other variant. My English girlfriend didn't know what "parenthesis" are for example; turns out it's very much an American thing – I had no idea – and it's brackets in British English apparently. There's been a few other confusio…

> not infrequently unaware

So, often unaware?

Re: Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American

#383

Post by lalaithion » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

recursive wrote: post #353

lalaithion wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically, "I refute it thus" and "I refute it thus." are both valid quotations of a source that contains, in its entirety, "I refute it thus."

Is "rig" a valid quotation of "dirigibility"? Is "go there" a valid quotation of "never go there"?

Yes, and yes.

But come on – should a punctuation style guide prevent misleading quotations? Can a punctuation style guide even do so?

Re: Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American

#384

Post by taylodl » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #376

_abox wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, us Dutch get taught British English at school so it makes sense for us even in English.

Most non-native speakers don't really use "British" or "American" English anyway, but rather a mixture of both, not infrequently unaware that a particular word or phrase belongs to one or the other variant. My English girlfriend didn't know what "parenthesis" are for example; turns out it's very much an American thing – I had no idea – and it's brackets in British English apparently. There's been a few other confusio…

Okay, if the word your girlfriend uses for "parenthesis" is "brackets" then what word does she use for what Americans call "brackets"? (Notice I use the British quotation style for interrogative sentences even though I'm American, it just makes sense). And do they use a different word for what Americans call a "brace"?

As an aside, being an old C/C++ developer I still remember being taken aback upon hearing someone pronounce #define has "hash define." (But I use the American style for declarative sentences!) I've always heard it pronounced "pound define" going back for decades.

Language, it's fun!

Re: Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American

#385

Post by kubanczyk » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 8:22 PM UTC

chrstphrknwtn wrote: post #382

arp242 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most non-native speakers don't really use "British" or "American" English anyway, but rather a mixture of both, not infrequently unaware that a particular word or phrase belongs to one or the other variant. My English girlfriend didn't know what "parenthesis" are for example; turns out it's very much an American thing – I had no idea – and it's brackets in British English apparently. There's been a few other confusio…

> not infrequently unaware So, often unaware?

Rarely aware, eh?

Re: Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American

#386

Post by arp242 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 12:04 AM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #384

arp242 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most non-native speakers don't really use "British" or "American" English anyway, but rather a mixture of both, not infrequently unaware that a particular word or phrase belongs to one or the other variant. My English girlfriend didn't know what "parenthesis" are for example; turns out it's very much an American thing – I had no idea – and it's brackets in British English apparently. There's been a few other confusio…

Okay, if the word your girlfriend uses for "parenthesis" is "brackets" then what word does she use for what Americans call "brackets"? (Notice I use the British quotation style for interrogative sentences even though I'm American, it just makes sense). And do they use a different word for what Americans call a "brace"? As an aside, being an old C/C++ developer I still remember being taken aback upon hearing someone p…

It's "square brackets" for [ and ]. It's confusing the same word means something subtly different; you have the same with "chips" (French fries in the US, crisps are used for US chips, in New Zealand chips is used for both though which is even more confusing) or "pepper" (bell pepper in the UK, chilli pepper in the US).

Re: Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American

#387

Post by jml7c5 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:48 AM UTC

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #117

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why it is redundant. There is no reason to assume that the quoted sentence ends the quoting sentence. Imagine this being the last thing you see on a page. Without turning the page, there would be no way of knowing whether the quoting sentence is complete. But these things are just conventions. It's futile to demand any kind of logic or consistency.

It's not the only element of style that may seem illogical, there are many more. Off the top of my head: * Nested parentheses. (In theory, you could use any level needed (provided that they make sense), but in practice, they're scoffed at.) It is similar with quotes, for the same reasons: limited readability - although here you can at least juggle with single, double and French quotes, depending on the language and s…

Regarding repetitons: the aversion to repeated words can create some amusingly inelegant sentences. These have become known as "knobbly monsters", after a particularly egregious example where a writer needed a synonym for "alligators". British tabloids elevated the practice to self-parody, and they are prominent among the examples recorded by @knobblymonsters: https://twitter.com/knobblymonsters .

Re: Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American

#388

Post by srachamim » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 11:35 PM UTC

As a programmer I prefer to avoid the semicolon cancer, so I think best is to get rid of the final period.

> Dr Johnson kicked a large rock and said, as his foot rebounded, “I refute it thus”

Re: Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American

#389

Post by Bhristovski » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 11:41 PM UTC

srachamim wrote: post #388

As a programmer I prefer to avoid the semicolon cancer, so I think best is to get rid of the final period. > Dr Johnson kicked a large rock and said, as his foot rebounded, “I refute it thus”

Btw for what it’s worth, Dr Johnson’s so-called refutation was a total failure. He only confirmed he had totally misunderstood what Berkeley was getting at.

Re: Prefer the British Style of Quotation Mark Punctuation over the American

#390

Post by taeric » Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #372

taeric wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is redundant because the punctuation is mainly there to indicate pausing or transitioning, but the quotes already indicate a change in voice, which is also a pause/transition. To that end, I am struggling to think of a time where the punctuation at the end of a quote really mattered. Even exclamations are less necessary, with the support of the surrounding sentance. Consider; they screamed "stop" to get the attent…

Yes; so the period inside the quotes is redundant, and that one should be removed. The outside sentence can continue after the quote; the terminating period outside of the quote is necessary if the sentence is ending there. We know that the quote has ended with the closing quote, and so we can agree on the convention that there is an implied period there, if the quoted material is a complete clause with subject and v…

Apologies on the long delay. I forgot I had posted. :(

I meant my point mostly tongue in cheek. Redundancy is not necessarily bad.

I do have trouble reading your sentence, though. The change of voice in a declarative sentence to interrogative without a stop, is kind of jarring. In that one, I'd leave off the quote and question mark, I think.

That all said, I think I mainly agree that it is all guidelines and mostly driven by reasons we no longer remember or care about. The rule I remember hearing was that the smaller character of the period was preferred inside the larger character, as the period was prone to break if done in the other way.