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Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

#41

Post by swarnie »

blackpowder12 wrote: post #40
zwirbl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why luckily?

Unfortunately even left wing folks in the UK remember that the coal unions shut down the country regularly in the 70s. I’m not from here, but I know a very left wing crowd and the older ones remember how they would dine in candlelight during the big coal strikes. Tatcher was a reaction to this.

I'll be honest i didn't expect this forum of all places to be so pro-union.

I understand why some people need collective bargaining to raise their position in the workplace but i thought this forum was full of talented professionals.

Re: Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

#42

Post by mastazi »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #39
mastazi wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also another problem with Italian trade unions. The workers who are unionised are generally privileged compared to the general population. Meanwhile many disadvantaged workers - who are employed with short-term contracts[1] or very often without contract[2], (which is wide spread even though that is technically illegal) are not unionised. At the same time you will see categories of privileged workers such as…

> Meanwhile many disadvantaged workers - who are employed with short-term contracts[1] (or very often without contract[2], which is wide spread even though that is technically illegal) are not unionised. Not to defend Italian unions, that have their fault, but: Of course workers working illegally are not unionized, that doesn't mean they have no protection at all. Italy is well known for having a subsidy for everythi…

> Anyway, short-term workers are protected by unions, I know for sure at least CGIL has a department devolved to temporary workers

But they are generally less likely to unionise i.e. the percentage of temporary workers who are union members is lower compared to long term contract workers.

I’m not saying this is necessarily the union’s fault, and of course I agree with you that it would be nearly impossible for illegal workers to unionise, however the fact remains that unions don’t generally represent the most disadvantaged groups.

I have to say though that the Amazon deal is a sign that things are changing. The unions that I remember would have strongly opposed the possibility of Amazon entering the Italian market, let alone making a deal with them.

Re: Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

#43

Post by pibechorro »

qsort wrote: post #21
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #14

Italian here. Don't get your hopes up, Italy is a very peculiar place, there are 11.5 million workers that are members of one of the tree major trade unions, not counting smaller ones, it's half of the total work force. Nothing moves in Italy without an agreement with trade unions when a company the size of Amazon starts hiring en masse. That's both good and bad, but generally more good than bad.

Italian as well. I'm generally pro-union and I see nothing wrong with this deal. Our particular implementation of unions though is dreadful and disgusting. Full of politicians or wannabe politicians, they'll gladly defend the indefensible to raise their membership numbers. They are for all practical purposes political parties, not unions, and they regularly come out with nonsensical takes about everything. It's good…

that is what always happens to unions and why I oppose them. They eventually corrupt because they are a political process, especially whrn in bed with regulators (look at Biden subcidies for tech only if unionized vs Tesla).

The same logic applies for business lobbying regulators, they corrupt and capture.

We need free markets, devoid of any political intervention. Individuals voluntarily coming to emergent consensus is the way towards fair and uncorruptable futures.

Re: Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

#44

Post by qsort »

pibechorro wrote: post #43
qsort wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italian as well. I'm generally pro-union and I see nothing wrong with this deal. Our particular implementation of unions though is dreadful and disgusting. Full of politicians or wannabe politicians, they'll gladly defend the indefensible to raise their membership numbers. They are for all practical purposes political parties, not unions, and they regularly come out with nonsensical takes about everything. It's good…

that is what always happens to unions and why I oppose them. They eventually corrupt because they are a political process, especially whrn in bed with regulators (look at Biden subcidies for tech only if unionized vs Tesla). The same logic applies for business lobbying regulators, they corrupt and capture. We need free markets, devoid of any political intervention. Individuals voluntarily coming to emergent consensus…

I agree that letting the market do its job would be the optimal solution, but this is unfortunately unrealistic. In most job markets there are information asymmetries so large that the market is effectively "nonfree" to begin with (free markets don't naturally emerge, you need at least some regulation for them to flourish).

In a utopian future where workers can freely reject bad working conditions, I agree, they would be unnecessary. For the time being, they are a necessary evil.

I once said half-jokingly that if they ever founded a union where membership is conditional on a whiteboard interview I'd join in a heartbeat. You need to keep out the politicized idiots who join a union not because of the union itself, but because they want to LARP as communists or whatever.

Re: Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

#45

Post by pjmlp »

pibechorro wrote: post #43
qsort wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italian as well. I'm generally pro-union and I see nothing wrong with this deal. Our particular implementation of unions though is dreadful and disgusting. Full of politicians or wannabe politicians, they'll gladly defend the indefensible to raise their membership numbers. They are for all practical purposes political parties, not unions, and they regularly come out with nonsensical takes about everything. It's good…

that is what always happens to unions and why I oppose them. They eventually corrupt because they are a political process, especially whrn in bed with regulators (look at Biden subcidies for tech only if unionized vs Tesla). The same logic applies for business lobbying regulators, they corrupt and capture. We need free markets, devoid of any political intervention. Individuals voluntarily coming to emergent consensus…

I have seen what free markets do to weekends, vacations, employee illness, and barging power, no thanks.

Want to see free markets in action?

Talk to the Asian or South American folks at the end of an offshoring sweet shop.

I bet plenty can jump in here, with their "barging power".

Re: Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

#46

Post by sundaeofshock »

swarnie wrote: post #41
blackpowder12 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately even left wing folks in the UK remember that the coal unions shut down the country regularly in the 70s. I’m not from here, but I know a very left wing crowd and the older ones remember how they would dine in candlelight during the big coal strikes. Tatcher was a reaction to this.

I'll be honest i didn't expect this forum of all places to be so pro-union. I understand why some people need collective bargaining to raise their position in the workplace but i thought this forum was full of talented professionals.

There are plenty of talented professionals over 40 who wish they had union protections.

Re: Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

#47

Post by pjmlp »

mastazi wrote: post #42
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile many disadvantaged workers - who are employed with short-term contracts[1] (or very often without contract[2], which is wide spread even though that is technically illegal) are not unionised. Not to defend Italian unions, that have their fault, but: Of course workers working illegally are not unionized, that doesn't mean they have no protection at all. Italy is well known for having a subsidy for everythi…

> Anyway, short-term workers are protected by unions, I know for sure at least CGIL has a department devolved to temporary workers But they are generally less likely to unionise i.e. the percentage of temporary workers who are union members is lower compared to long term contract workers. I’m not saying this is necessarily the union’s fault, and of course I agree with you that it would be nearly impossible for illega…

Many peoplet that are unlikely to unionized aren't even aware of their work rights per law, the basic stuff they aren't actually obliged to do, but they do it anyway thanks to their lack of knowledge, and fear to lose their job.

Re: Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

#48

Post by ZeroGravitas »

blackpowder12 wrote: post #40
zwirbl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why luckily?

Unfortunately even left wing folks in the UK remember that the coal unions shut down the country regularly in the 70s. I’m not from here, but I know a very left wing crowd and the older ones remember how they would dine in candlelight during the big coal strikes. Tatcher was a reaction to this.

The right wing have been sending troops and tanks and other kinds of hired thugs out to keep miners in their place and force them to accept pay and work conditions that were often illegal for a long time. Generally with the benefit of hindsight, the miners were in the right.

So its probably ahistorical to suggest that Margaret Thatcher, only attacked the unions because they went too far. Maybe she just wanted to keep the money for herself and her political connections rather than pay the people risking their lives to mine it a fair wage.

Re: Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

#49

Post by zwirbl »

swarnie wrote: post #41
blackpowder12 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately even left wing folks in the UK remember that the coal unions shut down the country regularly in the 70s. I’m not from here, but I know a very left wing crowd and the older ones remember how they would dine in candlelight during the big coal strikes. Tatcher was a reaction to this.

I'll be honest i didn't expect this forum of all places to be so pro-union. I understand why some people need collective bargaining to raise their position in the workplace but i thought this forum was full of talented professionals.

Being a talented professional and being pro-union is not mutually exclusive. Unions can (and oftentimes do) serve as a counter to employers leverage, while admittedly reducing workplace flexibility. Unions have achieved worker-rights that are now taken for granted, keeping these will need entities working towards that

Re: Amazon reaches agreement with trade unions in Italy

#50

Post by swarnie »

sundaeofshock wrote: post #46
swarnie wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be honest i didn't expect this forum of all places to be so pro-union. I understand why some people need collective bargaining to raise their position in the workplace but i thought this forum was full of talented professionals.

There are plenty of talented professionals over 40 who wish they had union protections.

Not in civilised countries.
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