GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars • Hacker News Board

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#361

Post by robin_reala » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:23 AM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #352

SamBam wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly no one should expect to be able to swap the main batteries that are embedded into the chassis of the car. The total weight of the batteries in a Tesla are around 1200 lbs. But it seems like there could be a hot-swappable portion of the battery, kind of like a separate "reserve tank" (although it wouldn't actually be reserved). Some back of the envelope math says that if 1200 lb battery gets you 250 miles, a…

What about small generator and a canister of gasoline?

That’s what BMW did with their i3 REX models: a scooter engine and a tiny tank, hooked up to the electrical system. Turns out though that the extra weight impacted the performance without adding much in the way of range to the point that it wasn’t really worth it.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#362

Post by drclau » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:23 AM UTC

dmurray wrote: post #4

> The automaker told Bolt owners to limit the charge to 90 percent, plug in more frequently and avoid depleting the battery to below about 70 miles of remaining range. Tesla's approach here would be to issue an OTA update that told your car to treat 90% as 100% and 25% as 0. I can't decide if I like that better or worse.

Tesla's approach is safer for everyone. Now, if you want to discuss ethics, that's a totally different thing.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#363

Post by nickik » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:25 AM UTC

vel0city wrote: post #296

seattle_spring wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Bolt have something equivalent to FSD? If not, why are you including it in the price comparison? Isn't the Bolt also dog slow compared to a Model 3? I'd also assume it's handling and suspension is markedly shitbox compared to any Tesla as well.

Somewhat, it has Super Cruise which is hands-free driving on highways. They're not trying to handle intersections, just the simpler long-haul kind of highway driving. It is a similar thing with Ford's Blue Cruise.

Bolt doesn't have Super Cruise unless I'm totally misinformed.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#364

Post by martin_a » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:26 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #42

Maybe lithium-ion batteries in mass-market vehicles aren't such a good idea. We may need a battery technology that can survive poor maintenance less than perfect battery construction, and low-cost vehicle designs. Tesla had to put a titanium plate under their battery. That's not a mass-market solution. BYD is converting over to lithium iron phosphate, which is much better behaved when damaged. Toyota is working on so…

> Fires destroying electric bike shops are a thing, with one fire expanding to all the batteries around. All we need now is for a cascade auto battery fire in a parking lot. Or, worst case, a garage under a building.

As a firefighter let me add some context: Electric car fires are no big deal anymore.

Yes, they're not "out" when there's no more flames or smoke for the moment as the damaged cells might be reacting further and further.

Easy solution: Put them in a tub full of water for at least 24 hours, better monitor the temperatures of the water and only lift them out once it has not changed for a few hours.

Most fire departments nowadays have some kind of container that can be filled where you can lift the car into. If not, they'll call somebody who has such a container, like landfills and alike.

Yes, the car is done after that, but it wouldn't be different with a gas-powered car either.

This might have been new five years ago, but so were solar panels 20 years ago and everybody was worried that nobody could ever extinguish a fire under solar panels.

Real life has shown, that you just rip the panels of the roof (if they're not already burned when we arrive) and work as if nothing has happened (simplified, but not too far away). With eletric cars you sink them. Easy as that. "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome." it is.

Also: garage fires are special in itself due to the lack of head room and "place to go" for heat, smoke and fire. It's not really a big difference after that. Basic rules of engagement are to be followed: Get the fire out and then the cars out of the garage. WIth electric cars you'll have to sink them once they are out of the garage, obviously.

Please stop fearmongering with "electric car fires".

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#365

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:40 AM UTC

bananasbandanas wrote: post #358

nickik wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but there are always multiple supercharges at each station. > it'll make sense to just designate the last 10% of battery as "reserve" and not count it in the battery level indicator. Very questionable? Why would you do that? We don't do that for gas cars either.

Every ICE car I've ever driven did exactly that with the 'reserve' where the needle is already at (or below) the zero line but you still get about 50 km of range.

Yup, exactly that.

I think the use cases for field-swapping a (part of the) battery pack are the same as for carrying extra fuel canisters with you, which I can only speculate about, because I've never been in such situation with an ICE car.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#366

Post by Dylan16807 » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

thesausageking wrote: post #242

beamatronic wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla actually had a battery swapping machine at one point, I think it was at the Kettleman City location. There's no reason the battery and charging infrastructure can't be leveraged for all passenger vehicles. The battery on your electric vehicle should be like the propane tank on your gas grill - just swap it out when you need to. (This doesn't preclude recharging it) Not to mention, when the battery reaches the e…

Tesla's swapping machine was just for tax credits. It was never built to be something they'd sell to customers. They built that one demo location and then abandoned battery swapping completely as not viable.

If they legitimately cared instead of faking it they could probably do better. Especially if the target is a maintenance-style machine setup rather than a 30 second gas station rival setup.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#367

Post by mschuster91 » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:42 AM UTC

martin_a wrote: post #364

Animats wrote: post #42

Maybe lithium-ion batteries in mass-market vehicles aren't such a good idea. We may need a battery technology that can survive poor maintenance less than perfect battery construction, and low-cost vehicle designs. Tesla had to put a titanium plate under their battery. That's not a mass-market solution. BYD is converting over to lithium iron phosphate, which is much better behaved when damaged. Toyota is working on so…

> Fires destroying electric bike shops are a thing, with one fire expanding to all the batteries around. All we need now is for a cascade auto battery fire in a parking lot. Or, worst case, a garage under a building. As a firefighter let me add some context: Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. Yes, they're not "out" when there's no more flames or smoke for the moment as the damaged cells might be reacting fur…

They do require a lot more water to be put out though.

> "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome." it is.

And here is the problem: most fire departments are horribly underfunded, meaning their machines are old, water tankers don't have enough capacity, water lines are un(der)maintained and the firefighter training has been ... spotty to put it lightly.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#368

Post by Dylan16807 » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

beambot wrote: post #302

thescriptkiddie wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany they are very serious about vehicle inspections, and insurance requirements.

Didn't the big German auto manufacturers literally develop the hacks to bypass diesel emissions inspections? I'm not sure I'd hold anyone up in a pedestal on this score...

Those cars still passed the inspection. Which means they were physically sound. A battery isn't going to shift into an alternate mode where it becomes a spontaneous fire hazard.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#369

Post by martin_a » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:46 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #367

martin_a wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fires destroying electric bike shops are a thing, with one fire expanding to all the batteries around. All we need now is for a cascade auto battery fire in a parking lot. Or, worst case, a garage under a building. As a firefighter let me add some context: Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. Yes, they're not "out" when there's no more flames or smoke for the moment as the damaged cells might be reacting fur…

They do require a lot more water to be put out though. > "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome." it is. And here is the problem: most fire departments are horribly underfunded, meaning their machines are old, water tankers don't have enough capacity, water lines are un(der)maintained and the firefighter training has been ... spotty to put it lightly.

Don't know where you're from, but for Germany this is mostly solved, but those tactics are obviously still "new" for most and need to be refined, yes.

edit:

> They do require a lot more water to be put out though.

As OP was mentioning garage fires, I was expecting urban neighborhoods, where getting enough water should (hopefully) not be a problem in 2021.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#370

Post by BrandoElFollito » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:51 AM UTC

gpm wrote: post #248

beamatronic wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If batteries are easily swappable with minimal tools, then a lot of range concerns go away as well. I think battery ownership and care needs to be decoupled from the vehicle. I also think the federal government should enforce interoperable batteries between vehicle brands.

The cars shape and structural components are designed around the battery. The cars software, motors, charging electronics, software, cooling systems, etc are all designed for the specific battery. The battery eats up a significant fraction of the cost of the car, and the systems designed around it a significant fraction of the remainder. Asking for interoperable batteries between vehicle brands is like asking for int…

> Asking for interoperable batteries between vehicle brands is like asking for interoperable engines between vehicle brands, it's ridiculous

No, it is like asking batteries for radios follow the norm (so that they can be swapped), or petrol to be the same for all cars, with the same pouring mechanism (a round hole), or USB connectors to be the same between devices.