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Facebook under fire over secret teen research

bbc.co.uk

181–190 of 226 posts

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#181
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I think the other aspect is this isn't just internet. When I was younger, going on the internet meant going to the upstairs bedroom, turning on the computer, waiting for it to boot up, then waiting for AOL to connect, then chatting with people. It would take like 5 minutes of effort. Now, most of the time when I go out, for fun, I just look how many people are hunched over staring and scrolling at their stupid r…

At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man, I remember 15-20 years ago talking to people next to me in public transports and meeting a lot of people who eventually became friends. Now when I'm in a subway, every one is hunched on their mobile phone, no one is available to engage in conversation, to meet people. They're instead focusing on that tiny bright rectangle. And I can see that I'm also guilty of the same.…

I got the iPod on release day and got so many confused glances/stares wearing headphones around the college campus and buses. That was a short phase for me but now I’m surrounded by people who are present but without presence. The world will never be the same.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#182
post #66

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I wonder if this happened, would teenagers would be upset or relieved? There's a This American Life episode[1] in which several teenage girls explain the complex etiquette of Instagram. It sounds stressful, it sounds exhausting, it sounds like a full time job. Right now, anyone who opts out also excludes themselves from a major aspect of school social life. 1. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/573/transcript

My nieces will instantly delete something they post if it doesn't get enough likes right away which seems so anxiety-inducing. :-/

I wonder what would happen if deletion wasn't an option. Like how it didn't use to be possible on Twitter. Would that make it worse? Or better, because then everybody would be in the same boat?

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would be upset. 100%. Many of them just don't care about the inner workings of the app.

Maybe that is the downside of the general policy of abstraction that Devs use, that software should be made to look as simple as possible, and all the apparently "unnecessary intricacies"(which could have disastrous effects) should be dumped under the hood.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#184
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Seeking out" in which sense? As in, "who are the people that I seek to condemn?" Or, "who are the people that I seek out to speak with?" Or some other sense? I'm not asking this to be obtuse; I'm genuinely interested in engaging on this topic, so I want to be sure I'm not speaking past your meaning. "Who are the people I seek to condemn?" The information workers that find employment with massive, human-rights-violat…

> Facebook employees are ethically compromised. Again, I disagree heartily. I know FB employees who aren't ethically compromised, which serves as a counterexample to your claim. I can't think of any legal, large employer with whom people are ethically compromised simply by employment. Also, your original claim was that they are morally corrupt. How do you distinguish between these two? > they are making the world wor…

I consider "ethically compromised" and "morally corrupt" to be the same thing.

I will accede to your claim: this is largely histrionics. I don't disavow my position, but I certainly do regret having so casually made these "totalizing" claims. It's a position I'm still working on formalizing well, but posting pure rhetoric is not that well-formalism.

You are correct that a single person isn't the world; however, my singular personhood is my entire world, and I do think it's fair to use the data point of me to make judgments about the world and others.

I think I specifically need to work on how I convey my notion of "ethically compromised," because I think it's probably far weaker than it's likely to be taken.

Perhaps I should say, instead, that I can not say any Facebook employee is ethical; or that, if Facebook employees were to share my ethical values, they could not view themselves as ethical actors (although I'm certainly not contending they ought to have my values). More generally, however, I believe this of every employee of Microsoft, Twitter, Google, Facebook, etc. (the uncivil technology corps) Saving only for those employees whose immigration to the USA was conditioned upon their employment.

To me, the question is very much similar to "Were the employees of IBM during the Holocaust ethical?" The reporting goes, that IBM helped Nazi Germany design the computer systems that tabulated inmates at concentration camps. I really hate this particular formulation, because I definitely do not want to draw parallels to Nazism; nor do I wish to imply that they are on the fringes of such. However, at their most extreme, the uncivil technology corps has contributed a lot of tech and a lot of data to the CCP. I believe the reporting that the CCP is arresting Uighur Muslims and others, and placing them in concentration camps. Again, I do not wish to imply that this is the same _in scale_ as the Holocaust, nor even necessarily _in kind_ (yet), but it certainly rhymes to an uncomfortable degree. This is where I specifically stake my claim that these employees are unethical for human rights violations.

I don't see how someone can claim any degree of ethical standing if they directly aid an endeavor which profits from such malady.

I am glad to hear that you've found benefit from using Facebook, but I contend that whatever positive values Facebook might have are far-and-away outweighed by the definite societal ills it wreaks.

Again, just to clarify, I'm not saying that you need share my opinion: just as I am my own yardstick for the universe, I respect that you do the same.

I sincerely appreciate the engagement we're having. It's easy to look at someone you perceive to be displaying histrionics and snub them; thank you for our dialogue, and I hope it can continue.

EDIT: If you'd wish to continue this dialogue via email, my inbox is in my profile; else, I definitely welcome continuing this thread here publicly.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#185
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is whatabouttery to a fine degree. You start with "I don't know what an Ethical company means to you _or if it should matter_;" I'm a sincere egoist, so I declare: no! It shouldn't matter to you, or to anyone, what my or anyone else's notion of ethical is! Ethics isn't a universal, it's not endemic to the individual experience, and neither is ethics-having in the first place. I contend that ethics-having is vita…

That test doesn't sound simple or an ethical measure. Apple taking away the right to repair is a company enforcing rules for a product be used in certain ways. On the other side facebook tries to get you to use the product in certain ways but rarely enforces it.

It's an ethical measure because I use it to measure whether something conforms to my ethical values. I take it to be axiomatic.

Likewise, it's a simple assessment for me to conduct. "Do I think this corporation enforces that their product or service be used in a certain specific way?" Unfortunately, I'm incapable of formalizing it any better than that. Yes, it's arbitrary, and not rational. I accept that. I don't advocate that anyone use this test, nor adopt my ethical positions; however, it is what I use, and I was primarily interested in sharing my perspective (which is both arbitrary and irrational).

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My nieces will instantly delete something they post if it doesn't get enough likes right away which seems so anxiety-inducing. :-/

I wonder what would happen if deletion wasn't an option. Like how it didn't use to be possible on Twitter. Would that make it worse? Or better, because then everybody would be in the same boat?

ha! Just like old hackernews comments :)

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#188
post #129
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is quite it, I think you're underrating the social aspect of it, and the algorithm aspect of it. When I was in high school (livejournal and myspace era), I had a friend group where most of the hanging out occurred IRL. I hung out with the dorks, so there was not a lot of focus on being hot and stuff. And IRL, there aren't algorithms that constantly shove pretty people in your face. Of course you se…

Yea, I think the other aspect is this isn't just internet. When I was younger, going on the internet meant going to the upstairs bedroom, turning on the computer, waiting for it to boot up, then waiting for AOL to connect, then chatting with people. It would take like 5 minutes of effort. Now, most of the time when I go out, for fun, I just look how many people are hunched over staring and scrolling at their stupid r…

Anecdata but my brother lives in a major Scottish city and cycles a lot.

He says that the biggest threat to his safety isn't traffic, it's people walking across the road looking at their phones. Often groups of them at the same time.

He reckons that when he's out cycling (and by this, I mean he cycles about 4 or 5 miles at most) he encounters at least 5 or 6 incidents on average.

I see it in the mornings when I walk my son to school. If I had to guess, I'd say more than 40% of the kids are looking at a phone.

I've also heard of some European cities putting traffic signals on the pavements so that phone users don't have to look up: I 100% disagree with this - They get killed? It's their fault!

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would be upset. 100%. Many of them just don't care about the inner workings of the app.

Maybe that is the downside of the general policy of abstraction that Devs use, that software should be made to look as simple as possible, and all the apparently "unnecessary intricacies"(which could have disastrous effects) should be dumped under the hood.

The point of abstraction isn’t to hide information from you. The point of (properly done) abstraction is to allow you to work without having to worry about the details.

Abstraction has nothing to do with this. The problem is the side effects of social media. Even if Facebook open source their algorithms, I doubt anyone could have conclusively predicted this. We only know all this because of empirical sampling of the user population.

Re: Facebook under fire over secret teen research

#190
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook employees are ethically compromised. Again, I disagree heartily. I know FB employees who aren't ethically compromised, which serves as a counterexample to your claim. I can't think of any legal, large employer with whom people are ethically compromised simply by employment. Also, your original claim was that they are morally corrupt. How do you distinguish between these two? > they are making the world wor…

I consider "ethically compromised" and "morally corrupt" to be the same thing. I will accede to your claim: this is largely histrionics. I don't disavow my position, but I certainly do regret having so casually made these "totalizing" claims. It's a position I'm still working on formalizing well, but posting pure rhetoric is not that well-formalism. You are correct that a single person isn't the world; however, my si…

Great dialogue.

Why Microsoft though? Not sure they can be compared to Google or Facebook. But maybe I'm missing something.

If Microsoft - why not Apple?

I think most of us are morally corrupt however or let's call it applying a flexible morality.

When it comes to pleasure or money, e.g. going to McDonalds, buying fast fashion, or working for these massive ad companies, it's not always easy to do the right thing.

It's a systemic issue and we need to address the 'profit uber alles' value system.

How would you address this problem?

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