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Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

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Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#991

Post by tekknik »

snovv_crash wrote: post #861
phkahler wrote: post #790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> All that aside though- forcing fat people to get skinny isn't a valid comparison to forcing people to take a vaccine. One takes a couple minutes and the other is something requiring an hour or more of dedicated time per day for potentially years Well we could just tell the fat people they aren't allowed to eat in restaurants and can't keep their jobs. That way they won't be able afford or get the food that keeps t…

I mean, that would work in the hypothetical situation where being skinny was a single free shot away, right.

You also seem to have no clue about obesity. Do you think everyone with it overeats?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#992

Post by kixiQu »

kixiQu wrote: post #566
nostrademons wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? If lots of people independently choose to take the risk and they're not harming anyone else, why shouldn't they be allowed to? The impact on the hospital system could be blunted simply by saying "This wing is for COVID patients, when it fills up further COVID patients will be turned away" and leaving the other wings for normal hospital patients. They have to do this for quarantine reasons anyway. Now that COVID i…

Okay, now factor in that breakthrough infections are more common in the elderly, can still kill (though rarely), and are more likely to happen the more COVID is circulating in the community, which is then a function of the vaccination rate. My vaccinated grandmother is being put at risk by unvaccinated folks in her town. There's no "independent" risk.

Alternately: any of us could be this guy: https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/0...

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#993

Post by LudvigVanHassen »

lenkite wrote: post #876
jackson1442 wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally medical gridlock hasn’t been a problem, but this is a unique case in that ICU beds are filling up in some regions leading to _entirely preventable_ illness and death that is unrelated to covid. Once that stops happening, I will care significantly less. But if I have the risk of not having an ICU bed if I get into a car crash because people aren’t getting vaccinated, that’s an unacceptable social outcome to…

A very large component of the "anti-vaxxer" crowd are medical staff who are now quitting in large numbers thanks to the mandate. Your beds are now going to be lowered . https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/13/new-york-hos...

This is an important point. While the media love to paint all "anti-vaxxers" are rural republicans or Trump supports, this simply isn't true. There are many racial minority groups (African Americans in particular) who are vaccine hesitant. There are healthcare workers in both rural and big cities of both political parties who are hesitant on the vaccines.

Also the phrase "anti-vaxxers" is an intentional conflagration of two separate groups: the original pre-covid19 anti-vaxxers and anti-COVID19-vaxxers.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#994

Post by LudvigVanHassen »

enaaem wrote: post #918
ixacto wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To reply as the devils advocate to this comment, what is the tolerance to social costs that society is willing to bear? Also why would one segment of society have to do something that it doesn't want e.g. not bear risk if they want to? Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? Overweight and obesity are going to cost much more in increased healthcare costs than COVID will in the coming decades (pls prove m…

From risk management perspective obesity and pandemics have completely different risk characteristics. Pandemics are contagious and deaths can grow exponentially, leading to catastrophic outcomes. Obesity is constraint to individuals. On the other hand. A vaccine that is not as rigorously tested as normal and is used on 80% of the population can also lead to catastrophic results. No one really knows the long term eff…

I agree with this.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#995

Post by kcplate »

clort wrote: post #862
kcplate wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You could argue that overweight folks are also paying disproportionately more simply by buying more food than someone who weighs 20% less. Overweight people pay their tax in a significant decrease in their quality of life. Eating unhealthy is way way cheaper. I can confirm both after 170lbs of weight loss. My food budget quadrupled. Rice, pasta, and white bread are cheap. Meat and veggies, not so much.

It sounds good but I find this framing uncomfortable because tax is not a penalty. Overweight people pay a penalty in a significant decrease in their quality of life, yes. That is not a tax though - tax is a contribution to society, and a decrease in one persons quality of life is not a contribution.

I was using it metaphorically. And for what it’s worth…some of us do consider tax a “penalty”

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#997

Post by Tycho »

javagram wrote: post #987
Tycho wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn’t notice what is happening in the “21 days after first dose” column? It went from 22 to 100! And if the NHS and other experts noticed it, they for some didn’t include an explanation along with their other comments on the data.

If the vaccine was dangerous and resulting in “non covid” deaths, why would the mortality be lower for people who had a second dose than for people who just had 1 dose? Commented separately but it’s pretty clear there’s some sort of selection effect going on with the people who are not getting a 2nd dose that makes them more likely to die of non-covid causes.

The 2nd dose cohort at that point had quite a different age profile (they were rolling out doses oldest to youngest). Over 50 age bands were 90%+ double dosed but 60% or less for under 50 age bands. It’s possible that older cohorts were out-performing typical mortality because of something like lack of flu due to lockdown.

Another possibility is that the first dose is an absorbing barrier if it causes so much illness and death that victims do not get a second dose. The two-dosed cohort are the “survivors” with the vulnerable already removed from the population.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#998

Post by switch007 »

switch007 wrote: post #561
gorwell wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that they STILL haven't considered natural immunity. Why not? That is a bizarre oversight, especially at this point.

He’s a gaslighter.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2019-05-22/david-ruben... skip to 23:10

> David Rubenstein: And the best way for me to prevent getting an infectious disease and having to have you as my doctor is, what, um, wearing a mask?

> Anthony Fauci: [smiling] No, no, no.

> David Rubenstein: Somebody — I can see they're ready to sneeze or cough — walk away?

> Anthony Fauci: You avoid all the paranoid aspects and do something positive. A: good diet. B: you don't smoke, I know. I know you don't drink, at least not very much, so that's pretty good. Get some exercise; I know that you don't get as much exercise as you should...

> David Rubenstein: That's correct.

> Anthony Fauci: ...get good sleep. I think that the normal, low-tech, healthy things are the best thing you can do, David, to stay healthy.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#999

Post by gscho »

CrazyPyroLinux wrote: post #826
gscho wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s needs to be a step further though. This wing is for COVID patients who couldn’t be vaccinated for legitimate health risks or for the vaccinated who still get COVID. Anyone who willingly skips the vaccination should not be eligible for COVID ER beds.

Wow, we sure took a hard turn from "Heath care is a human right." Scribbled below that on the barn wall is, "...as long as you do what you're told."

As long as you do what is right

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#1000

Post by sam0x17 »

sdiupIGPWEfh wrote: post #294
sam0x17 wrote: post #33

It's a waste of resources to figure out whether someone has natural immunity (its quite hard to do logistically). Much easier to just give them the vaccine, then your bases are covered. These are public health decisions -- they don't occur in a vacuum with unlimited resources.

We could make individuals pay for it. Heck, we could tax it, make them pay through the nose for it, and reinvest it back into vaccinations. Up the costs even more if they want to be retested. Since it's not medically necessary, their insurance shouldn't have to cover it, meaning the costs won't have to be borne by everyone else.

Yes, this would also be very reasonable public health policy.
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