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Deaths involving Covid-19 by vaccination status, England

ons.gov.uk

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Re: Deaths involving Covid-19 by vaccination status, England

#121

Post by lamontcg »

bedhead wrote: post #68
rkk3 wrote: post #2

Deaths 21 days or more after second dose: .89% Percent of all Covid Deaths That seems like great news?

Facts like these don't matter to the COVID-obsessed. Turns out that screaming 24/7 for 18 months at people they're going to die messes with their cognitive abilities. Go figure! And here I thought doing this would keep us calm and rational. We basically have a best-case scenario today and an awful lot of people don't care and still think it's doomsday. Vaccines are fantastic at reducing COVID to a cold, kids are at n…

There's a reason we "scapegoat" the unvaccinated.

The hospitals in places like Florida and Idaho are being knocked over by the unvaccinated winding up on ventilators and dying. In the process they're denying medical care to other people.

It looks like we're going to have to burn through senselessly burying another hundred thousand or so americans to get to the end of this. We're back to "flatten the curve" in order to hopefully make sure that when you get into a traffic accident that you don't die for lack of medical care.

AND IF EVERYONE HAD JUST GOTTEN VACCINATED NONE OF THIS WOULD BE HAPPENING AND WE WOULD BE BACK TO NORMAL.

Why is this so fucking hard.

Re: Deaths involving Covid-19 by vaccination status, England

#122

Post by distrill »

human wrote: post #115
wallacoloo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re on this site, you probably work in an industry where it feels like very large things can get done in 18 months. I remember in February 2020, before anything reached the US, watching China build a new hospital in all of 10 days. I have some vague understandings of “all-hands-on-deck” govt projects of the past. FDR’s WPA jobs program, etc. So it’s dishearteningly easy to look at this situation from that point…

Thank you for your answer. I was asking the question in good faith. Coming from an engineering and entrepreneurial background, I can't help but recognize myself in your comment. I do feel like we should have done a "war effort" to improve our healthcare system and even our public buildings. I can agree it's not an easy task, but it seems 1000 times more productive than locking people at home. Plus, it would ready us…

I 100% agree that we should have done and should still do more to prepare for this and future pandemics.

But I still wonder how you're not getting this. The vaccine greatly reduces your chances of getting sick, and getting stuck in a hospital, but it doesn't completely eliminate it. If everyone between 18-50 refused to get vaccinated, we would still see a surge in hospitalizations. Do you not understand the word "protected"?

Do you think that the utility of a young person getting vaccinated is zero? Or do you think it's just too small to be worth the inconvenience? I don't know why the conversation turns into "why do I have to do this" - can't we focus instead on why you aren't willing to help your community?

And again, has literally nobody addressed this in the last 18 months that you've read? I'm sure my tone is more hostile than I intend, but I'm really confused at this point.

Re: Deaths involving Covid-19 by vaccination status, England

#123

Post by ghoward »

lamontcg wrote: post #121
bedhead wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facts like these don't matter to the COVID-obsessed. Turns out that screaming 24/7 for 18 months at people they're going to die messes with their cognitive abilities. Go figure! And here I thought doing this would keep us calm and rational. We basically have a best-case scenario today and an awful lot of people don't care and still think it's doomsday. Vaccines are fantastic at reducing COVID to a cold, kids are at n…

There's a reason we "scapegoat" the unvaccinated. The hospitals in places like Florida and Idaho are being knocked over by the unvaccinated winding up on ventilators and dying. In the process they're denying medical care to other people. It looks like we're going to have to burn through senselessly burying another hundred thousand or so americans to get to the end of this. We're back to "flatten the curve" in order t…

> AND IF EVERYONE HAD JUST GOTTEN VACCINATED NONE OF THIS WOULD BE HAPPENING AND WE WOULD BE BACK TO NORMAL.

We can't know that. You are assuming. For all we know, if everyone got vaccinated the virus could have mutated around it faster, leaving us at square one.

Re: Deaths involving Covid-19 by vaccination status, England

#124

Post by mikem170 »

lamontcg wrote: post #120
rich_sasha wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glancing though the report you linked, it says 55-70% reduction in symptomatic disease after 1 dose and more after 2. Higher effectiveness against severe disease, hospitalisation and death. For delta, they quote a 10-15% drop of effectiveness after two/one doses respectively. That seems in line with the “official” line and different to your numbers? Or am I reading you wrong? Another nugget in there is that something…

> Another nugget in there is that something like 95-97 of the population has Covid antibodies That is almost certainly wrong. Vaccine uptake in under-12 is 0% and vaccine uptake in young adults is low. There's no way to make those kinds of seroprevalence numbers work.

Natural immunity?

But then again, I seem to remember that the 97% number was not a fair enough random sampling.

Re: Deaths involving Covid-19 by vaccination status, England

#125

Post by human »

distrill wrote: post #122
human wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your answer. I was asking the question in good faith. Coming from an engineering and entrepreneurial background, I can't help but recognize myself in your comment. I do feel like we should have done a "war effort" to improve our healthcare system and even our public buildings. I can agree it's not an easy task, but it seems 1000 times more productive than locking people at home. Plus, it would ready us…

I 100% agree that we should have done and should still do more to prepare for this and future pandemics. But I still wonder how you're not getting this. The vaccine greatly reduces your chances of getting sick, and getting stuck in a hospital, but it doesn't completely eliminate it. If everyone between 18-50 refused to get vaccinated, we would still see a surge in hospitalizations. Do you not understand the word "pro…

Where I live we have more cases today (twice more) with 82% of people double-vaccinated then we did last year with 0% vaccinated.

Re: Deaths involving Covid-19 by vaccination status, England

#126

Post by MatteoFrigo »

lamontcg wrote: post #120
rich_sasha wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glancing though the report you linked, it says 55-70% reduction in symptomatic disease after 1 dose and more after 2. Higher effectiveness against severe disease, hospitalisation and death. For delta, they quote a 10-15% drop of effectiveness after two/one doses respectively. That seems in line with the “official” line and different to your numbers? Or am I reading you wrong? Another nugget in there is that something…

> Another nugget in there is that something like 95-97 of the population has Covid antibodies That is almost certainly wrong. Vaccine uptake in under-12 is 0% and vaccine uptake in young adults is low. There's no way to make those kinds of seroprevalence numbers work.

The PHE report measures both antibodies from natural immunity, and antibodies from (vaccine or natural infection or both). (They don't have a vaccine-only measure.) The former is in the 20% range, depending on age. The latter is in the 97%+ range, again depending on age, reaching essentially 100% for older people.

The big caveat is that the sample population consists of blood donors, which may or may not be representative of the overall population.

Re: Deaths involving Covid-19 by vaccination status, England

#127

Post by lamontcg »

ghoward wrote: post #123
lamontcg wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason we "scapegoat" the unvaccinated. The hospitals in places like Florida and Idaho are being knocked over by the unvaccinated winding up on ventilators and dying. In the process they're denying medical care to other people. It looks like we're going to have to burn through senselessly burying another hundred thousand or so americans to get to the end of this. We're back to "flatten the curve" in order t…

> AND IF EVERYONE HAD JUST GOTTEN VACCINATED NONE OF THIS WOULD BE HAPPENING AND WE WOULD BE BACK TO NORMAL. We can't know that. You are assuming. For all we know, if everyone got vaccinated the virus could have mutated around it faster, leaving us at square one.

The vaccines are something around 98% effective against severe disease. If people were vaccinated they'd stay out of the hospitals. The hospitals are the problem.

I feel like I'm explaining arithmetic to an idiot.

And if you vaccinate everyone there will be less infections overall. For all of the worst-casing about VE and waning against infection it still isn't 0% VE. And breakthrough infections have less culturable virus and decline faster since the primed immune system defeats the disease faster. That means less chance for mutations.

We need to stop assuming that up could really be down. It isn't. Vaccines work. They prevent disease. They keep people out of the hospital. They reduce the chances of mutation. If everyone was vaccinated all this stupid shit would be over. Antivaxxers are dragging this shit out because they're afraid of needles and they are the ones causing all this suffering.

Re: Deaths involving Covid-19 by vaccination status, England

#128

Post by lamontcg »

MatteoFrigo wrote: post #126
lamontcg wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another nugget in there is that something like 95-97 of the population has Covid antibodies That is almost certainly wrong. Vaccine uptake in under-12 is 0% and vaccine uptake in young adults is low. There's no way to make those kinds of seroprevalence numbers work.

The PHE report measures both antibodies from natural immunity, and antibodies from (vaccine or natural infection or both). (They don't have a vaccine-only measure.) The former is in the 20% range, depending on age. The latter is in the 97%+ range, again depending on age, reaching essentially 100% for older people. The big caveat is that the sample population consists of blood donors, which may or may not be represent…

Are there any under-12 kids in the blood donors?

And yes blood donors aren't representative of the general population due to selection effects.

Re: Deaths involving Covid-19 by vaccination status, England

#130

Post by MatteoFrigo »

lamontcg wrote: post #128
MatteoFrigo wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PHE report measures both antibodies from natural immunity, and antibodies from (vaccine or natural infection or both). (They don't have a vaccine-only measure.) The former is in the 20% range, depending on age. The latter is in the 97%+ range, again depending on age, reaching essentially 100% for older people. The big caveat is that the sample population consists of blood donors, which may or may not be represent…

Are there any under-12 kids in the blood donors? And yes blood donors aren't representative of the general population due to selection effects.

You can read the report, but the blood donor population is 17 years or older.

The result of the report is that some form of immunity exists in 97%+ of the blood donors at least 17 years old, in the UK.

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