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Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

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161–170 of 187 posts

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#161

I always feel like people never discuss the elephant in the room, which is that whoever you are, your feed is dictated by the people and pages you have chosen to follow. It doesn't matter what the platform is. If you give people the flexibility to craft their own feed, and they want to craft a feed full of hate and lies and nonsense, how can we ever stop them? Meanwhile, my feed has zero politics and is comprised alm…

Twitter has ended up pretty good for me.

1) I set my location to the country Chad so I don't see popular trends that aren't very interesting, or serve as sources of outrage. 2) I use the word-based content filters to omit annoying politicians or topics from my feed. So much more peaceful now that I don't have to see people's outrage at the latest political enfant terrible. 3) I primarily follow primarily historians who make fantastic long threads, film critics I respect, movie/art channels. No crazy politics stuff. Few of my friends are on it so I don't have to see their stuff either.

If I want the news, I just read a few major newspapers. It works well enough for me!

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#162

One reason why Facebook keeps failing in increasing "meaningful social interaction" could be because they at the same time tries to sell ads. It seems like it would be easy to simply exclude "reshares" from users news feed. They could try to: "Sort by date" and "only posts posted/shared by my friend directly". Personally I think that would remove much of the toxicity. Secondly, simply ban news sites from the platform…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#163

One reason why Facebook keeps failing in increasing "meaningful social interaction" could be because they at the same time tries to sell ads. It seems like it would be easy to simply exclude "reshares" from users news feed. They could try to: "Sort by date" and "only posts posted/shared by my friend directly". Personally I think that would remove much of the toxicity. Secondly, simply ban news sites from the platform…

The article makes it seem like people at Facebook have ideas on how to potentially thread the needle, but Zuckerberg (and probably a handful of other senior executives) keep putting the kibosh on it.

We know there are some people with pretty idiosyncratic political beliefs and unsavory connections on Facebook's board and within its senior executive leadership. It's not hard to imagine that maybe they like it being an engine for stoking outrage and perpetuating disinformation for reasons unrelated to the financials or for any intelligible design/engineering logic. It doesn't even necessarily have to be malicious. They could literally just be blinkered by a weird ideological belief in "absolute" free-speech.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#164

Facebook is fundamentally a dead platform, as far as I can tell. I've got over 500 "friends" and I see almost nothing on the news feed, to the point where it remains static aside from the shifting ads, for days at a time. There's a chilling effect at some level with the way that Facebook has a defacto "real name" policy, combined with the fact that it's your real-life family and friends and normies that you are conne…

Facebook agrees with you, per the article. The article places a lot of the blame on the changes to the algorithms in January 2018, which at the time Zuck portrayed as a sacrifice: "Now, I want to be clear: by making these changes, I expect the time people spend on Facebook and some measures of engagement will go down," he wrote on Facebook. "But I also expect the time you do spend on Facebook will be more valuable. And if we do the right thing, I believe that will be good for our community and our business over the long term too."

"Facebook training videos and internal memos show another reason for the change -- the company's growing concern about a decline in user engagement, which typically refers to actions like commenting on or sharing posts.Comments, likes and reshares declined through 2017, while "original broadcast" posts -- the paragraph and photo a person might post when a dog dies -- continued a yearslong decline that no intervention seemed able to stop, according to the internal memos. The fear was that eventually users might stop using Facebook altogether."

So they made changes to the algorithm and ended up making things worse, by emphasizing politics, hate-clicks, and arguments. This shows the limits of algorithms: there is a reason that actual news organizations rely on humans to decide on what information to present to you, not some machine learning black-box.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#165

One reason why Facebook keeps failing in increasing "meaningful social interaction" could be because they at the same time tries to sell ads. It seems like it would be easy to simply exclude "reshares" from users news feed. They could try to: "Sort by date" and "only posts posted/shared by my friend directly". Personally I think that would remove much of the toxicity. Secondly, simply ban news sites from the platform…

The Facebook Integrity team agrees with you, Zuck just doesn't want to give up the cash.

"Early tests showed how reducing [downstream MSI- the likelihood of creating long chains of reshares] of the algorithm for civic and health information helped reduce the proliferation of false content. Facebook made the change for those categories in the spring of 2020. When Ms. Stepanov presented Mr. Zuckerberg with the integrity team's proposal to expand that change beyond civic and health content -- and a few countries such as Ethiopia and Myanmar where changes were already being made -- Mr. Zuckerberg said he didn't want to pursue it if it reduced user engagement, according to the documents."

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#166

It all comes down to every PM's favorite metric: engagement . When users get into a heated flamewar, that's high-engagement. So you want to do everything you can to ensure that the most possible users get sucked into flamewars. I feel like this should be banned, but it's unclear what the best approach would be. Mandating chronological feed order?

PMs who think like this are the kids who stand around two kids about to fight, egging them on. These are not your friends. These are not good people.

Superintendent: What is this gathering of people?

Teacher: Two kids are fighting sir.

Superintendent: And people are watching?

Teacher: Yes sir.

Superintendent: Great engagement! Lets put those kids next to each other so we can get more of this!

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#167

I always feel like people never discuss the elephant in the room, which is that whoever you are, your feed is dictated by the people and pages you have chosen to follow. It doesn't matter what the platform is. If you give people the flexibility to craft their own feed, and they want to craft a feed full of hate and lies and nonsense, how can we ever stop them? Meanwhile, my feed has zero politics and is comprised alm…

Many times people engage in behaviour they know is bad for them. See smoking, alcohol etc. Regulating the entities which makes that bad behaviour possible is a reasonable solution.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally this is what I've been seeing over the years. Most of my friends and acquaintances seem to have left Facebook behind and moved to Insta. The people that stayed on FB are mostly those who like to express strong opinions and engage in pointless discussions.

Sadly, some of my friends now use Insta to propagate the same level of political vitriol as they did on FB. They just leverage text overlays to accomplish their goal.

At this point the exact posts are just shared around platforms. Tweets posted on HN. Tweets posted to reddit. Facebook memes on instagram. Ticktock posts to instagram and reddit. Doesn't matter what platform you go on, the same fodder ends up everywhere.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do masks work very well? What kinds of masks? Where do people actually get COVID (home? bars? schools? hiking in the forest?). What are the actual results from non-vax drugs or treatments? How long are the vaccinations likely to be useful? Did early large-scale vaccination simply cause forced evolution of variants? These questions are always asked in bad faith, if they're even asked at all rather than just taking t…

>These questions are always asked in bad faith, I'd say not. I'd genuinely like to know if a cloth bandana has any value, if grocery stores are dangerous, is the mass of people actually better off for an early and hard vaccine regime. It's partly intellectual interest and partly an attempt to guide my own behavior. Having said that, everyone is too invested in their theories to be skeptical.

> I'd genuinely like to know if a cloth bandana has any value,

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2020/08/16/face-masks...

Better than nothing, but there are better options.

> if grocery stores are dangerous

I don't think it's possible to make a concrete answer to that question. The "danger" of any given place is going to just be a placement on a spectrum based on the airflow and how crowded it is. Where the line is to define something as "dangerous" is going to be pretty subjective. It's like showing a white-to-black gradient and asking where "dark grey" ends and "grey" begins.

But in your other post, you said:

> What are the actual results from non-vax drugs or treatments?

This is one where there is very clear scientific consensus, yet people ignore it. Take of course Ivermectin, where it's been proven that while it does somehow kill COVID in vitro, the dosage needed to make it work in vivo is higher than the maximum recommended dose.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7172803/

> How long are the vaccinations likely to be useful?

At the time of the invention of the vaccine, this was unknown, but I've always failed to see how it would be a valid criticism against the vaccine enough to choose to skip the vaccine entirely. Whether it would require a booster after 6 months or if it lasted a lifetime, they were proven to significantly reduce hospitalizations and death from COVID.

> Did early large-scale vaccination simply cause forced evolution of variants?

Anyone with a basic knowledge of microbiology acknowledges how quickly bacteria and viruses can evolve (Hence why doctors always plead for patients to complete their anti-biotic prescriptions and not stop taking them once symptoms subside!). Evolution of variants was inevitable. But if we had achieved 90%+ vaccination rates quickly enough, we could have mostly eradicated it before a variant could have taken hold.

And we totally could have. It's really disheartening to see the graph of COVID cases and deaths this year. From January to July, the number was plummeting as vaccinations were being distributed, but some time around June/July, we reached the point where everyone who wanted a vaccine had one, and it was only the anti-vaxxers that were holding out. Eventually, Delta happened, and cases/deaths have been skyrocketing since the beginning of August.

Of course, over 90% of the people being hospitalized or dying from COVID now are unvaccinated (There's even a subreddit dedicated to anti-vaxxers dying to COVID, https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward) , but that still isn't convincing them.

At this point, I'm convinced absolutely nothing will convince an anti-vaxxer. Data doesn't matter to them. Peer-reviewed studies don't matter to them. They think the CDC and FDA are corrupt and everything they spout is a lie. If they get COVID, they'll talk about (but not follow through with) suing the hospital for malpractice when the hospital doesn't give them Ivermectin because Joe Rogan told them Ivermectin cures COVID.

Re: Facebook tried to make its platform a healthier place, but it got angrier

#170
post #122
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a social science experiment with 3 billion guinea pigs. Every time you rerun it, if someone somewhere (and the people connected to them get effected) how many attempts do you get?

Facebook does most of their experiments by rolling out changes to a smaller subset of users. The number of guinea pigs is much smaller.

Animal testing is regulated activity. Do you know why?
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