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Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

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Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#971

Post by kristjansson »

ixacto wrote: post #536
kristjansson wrote: post #525

Because it's a terrible policy prescription. If natural immunity is acceptable, what proportion of the unvaccinated-uninfected population will just take the risk? Half? More? Millions of people will just (continue to) take the risk, get sick, go to hospital, and die (in decreasing proportions), incurring substantial personal and social costs along the way. Accepting only vaccination as evidence of protection reduces…

To reply as the devils advocate to this comment, what is the tolerance to social costs that society is willing to bear? Also why would one segment of society have to do something that it doesn't want e.g. not bear risk if they want to? Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? Overweight and obesity are going to cost much more in increased healthcare costs than COVID will in the coming decades (pls prove m…

The social costs of forgoing the vaccine are unique in that they arrive all at once. Smoking, drinking, obesity, etc. increase lifetime healthcare costs, but realize those costs over a long period of time. Hospitals are sized appropriately, more can be built if projections indicate more need, doctors can be trained, etc.

A policy that accepts infection-recovery as equivalent to vaccination unconditionally and removes most/all other restrictions could result in lots of those social costs over a very short period of time, much shorter than the timescale on which resources can adjust. So much so that resources become exhausted, and the costs compound from merely high to truly awful. Personal choice resulting in an impaired standard of care for unrelated people in need for unrelated reasons should probably be discouraged or proscribed.

Once the risk of resource exhaustion is eliminated, a policy that's less than a full-court press for vaccination might be reasonable. But that risk is primarily determined by the size of the covid-naive population, which can only be reduced by vaccination or infection...

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#972

Post by kristjansson »

tommymachine wrote: post #727
dham wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's say, hypothetically, there existed a free shot which would immediately make its recipient a perfectly lean 20 BMI and grants all the benefits of health and exercise without the work I would be very skeptical and wonder what the downside is

What if the downside was well studied and not reported on? [1] https://media.patriots.win/post/nWnEYVAL.jpeg

Presenting that table without an applicable denominator is misleading. The N on the table is a count of adverse events, not of people or does. The reported events occurred at a rate of between ~5 and ~70 per million doses administered for the highlighted age groups. Higher than background risk? Yes. High risk? No.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#973

Post by ghostwriter »

franga2000 wrote: post #913
ghostwriter wrote: post #903

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Peevish attitude -- as if getting a vaccine is a deep personal choice. Bodily integrity is a deep personal thing. “My body, my choice” isn’t it?

Can people please stop using that chant? It's not relevant. It was never used for what you're using it for. It was an overly general chant used to push a very specific policy goal. Bodily integrity isn't a blanket rule. You have it only insofar as it doesn't harm others. Abortion, HRT, plastic surgery... fall into that category. Willingly spreading a deadly disease despite an easy and safe-ish preventative option doe…

> Bodily integrity isn't a blanket rule. You have it only insofar as it doesn't harm others.

To move forward, you have to prove that one particular unvaccinated person harmed another particular person in the case of covid. Good luck with establishing this causation!

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#974

Post by grey413 »

h2odragon wrote: post #730
grey413 wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VAERS reports can (and should) be done for any death following vaccination, whether or not anyone thinks that death was vaccine-related. There's no evidence that the "13k+ COVID-19 vaccine related deaths" are anything of the sort; VEARS is simply not the sort of scientific study that can provide that sort of evidence. VEARS can throw up red flags for safety halts and further study (as happened with the Johnson and Jo…

"COVID Cases" turns out to be anyone with covid who might be in the hospital for anything else. COVID deaths have included people "greedily" the same way. Shouldn't the vaccine be counted by the same standards and the same statistical methods used?

Comparing Covid statistics to VAERS is comparing apples to oranges.

I completely reject your premise that the covid statistics are shoddy. It's easy to confirm a covid case. You do a PCR test, and if you get a positive back it's covid, end of story. It's admittedly a bit trickier to attribute a covid death... but not really. If a covid patient dies of a heart attack, it could be bad luck, or it could be the disease that coagulates its victims' blood. But usually it's pretty obvious. Someone dying of pneumonia and/or a cytokine storm isn't exactly subtle. There's nothing in the overall death statistics that suggest that the obvious covid deaths are anything but the obvious.

By comparison, establishing a casual connection between a vaccine and any adverse side effects is incredibly difficult, simply because they're so rare. Of the 44000 people in the Pfizer trials, literally none of them died of covid OR the vaccine, vs 15 covid deaths in the unvaccinated control group. And VAERS is just a safety net in case something small-but serious slips through the statistical power of a full scientific study (as happened with the J&J vaccine).

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#975

Post by mattparcens »

peteradio wrote: post #936
louissm_it wrote: post #914

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, just stay away from our towns and businesses where you can endanger people who care about each other. Your livelihood may not be threatened, mine isn't either - but you're probably threatening someone else's.

Youre in a thread talking about people with natural immunity who do not wish to get vaccinated. How is someone with natural immunity endangering you?

It's unfortunate that it's necessary to provide this reminder within almost every message thread.

It's basically a straw man fallacy, and the fact that it's probably unintentional on the part of the committers tells you something about the single-mindedness of those doing the committing.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#976

Post by stjohnswarts »

kristjansson wrote: post #525

Because it's a terrible policy prescription. If natural immunity is acceptable, what proportion of the unvaccinated-uninfected population will just take the risk? Half? More? Millions of people will just (continue to) take the risk, get sick, go to hospital, and die (in decreasing proportions), incurring substantial personal and social costs along the way. Accepting only vaccination as evidence of protection reduces…

Given how simple the vaccine is there really should be a zero tolerance policy (barring a real medical reason). I think the president had the right idea with his mandate. To be a part of society those people can take one tiny shot (or two) .

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#977

Post by stjohnswarts »

ixacto wrote: post #536
kristjansson wrote: post #525

Because it's a terrible policy prescription. If natural immunity is acceptable, what proportion of the unvaccinated-uninfected population will just take the risk? Half? More? Millions of people will just (continue to) take the risk, get sick, go to hospital, and die (in decreasing proportions), incurring substantial personal and social costs along the way. Accepting only vaccination as evidence of protection reduces…

To reply as the devils advocate to this comment, what is the tolerance to social costs that society is willing to bear? Also why would one segment of society have to do something that it doesn't want e.g. not bear risk if they want to? Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? Overweight and obesity are going to cost much more in increased healthcare costs than COVID will in the coming decades (pls prove m…

It is a slippery slope fallacy. You only have to look back through the history of vaccines and see. We have had vaccine mandates before and guess what? No dictatorship installed. It's easy to point at democracies all over the world. Mandated vaccinations never led to "okay now do this ______ to improve your health or else" . Also no one says bring in the police, just make it so that if you want a job then get the vax or bring in a reason from your doctor that says you can't take it because of some medical condition. Simple.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#978

Post by tim333 »

Causality1 wrote: post #953
tim333 wrote: post #947

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems completely untrue from the recent Israeli data.

This is the data I've seen: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm?s_cid=mm...

That study seems to be showing that vax + natural is better than natural alone but does not seem to compare vax alone to natural alone.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#979

Post by [deleted] »

sbilstein wrote: post #916
dkdk8283 wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absurd. Vaccine efficacy is measured against natural antibodies resulting from a recovery. I cannot get the vaccine and I’m effectively a second class citizen. I was sick and recovered - my immune system is working as designed.

what is stopping you from getting the vaccine?

[deleted]

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#980

Post by cgrealy »

peteradio wrote: post #936
louissm_it wrote: post #914

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, just stay away from our towns and businesses where you can endanger people who care about each other. Your livelihood may not be threatened, mine isn't either - but you're probably threatening someone else's.

Youre in a thread talking about people with natural immunity who do not wish to get vaccinated. How is someone with natural immunity endangering you?

How do you know anyone has natural immunity? There are plenty of anti-vaxx conspiracy nutjobs that would happily lie about it to avoid getting improved 5G.
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