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Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

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Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#331

Post by ksec »

mhh__ wrote: post #287
omegalulw wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should look at one step further - RISC-V. Open source is the best way to ensure consumers don't get shafted by someone doing the Intel model again or Apple keeping M1 limited to their devices.

You seem to be making the classic mistake of thinking that a given RISC-V processor is open source. The standard is open, the processor's source "code" (design) doesn't have to be. This does not mean RISC-V use wouldn't be a good thing, as it prevents a whole boatload of legal issues, but it just isn't what a lot of people seem to think it is. ARM could end up being a better ISA in the very high-clock high-IPC domain…

It is sad to see these sort of misinformation continue to spread like plague. Especially on HN.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#332

Post by OneTimePetes »

mnadkvlb wrote: post #91
dippersauce wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before M1 my only exposure to ARM has been low-power SBCs and Android devices, and the experience was mediocre in the “just works” department. Poor hardware support, and a lack of proprietary software support. Performance was also lacking. Apple’s tight integration and high-end CPUs have resulted in a vastly better experience, but I want to have more options than just macOS and MacBooks. I think we’re trending in the…

I have tried buying microsoft arm computers since the last two gens now both the surface prox x with qualcomm sq1 and sq2 as well as another yoga book 5g. Windows performance on these platforms is so trash, you feel like going back ten years on ultrabooks. Even their own apps are not optimized or some like visual studio didnt even run. Compare that to x86 builtin emulation on apple m1, it performs so close to native…

They want to be apple so bad, but they also want to be google so bad, not realizing that the overlapping set is empty.

You cant be user friendly, private first luxury appliance and data-driven add sell-out at the same time.

One dream has to die for the fish to fry.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#333

Post by colinmhayes »

whatbutwhy wrote: post #327
colinmhayes wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel's profit is double AMD's revenue. Cash flow is not their problem.

Can you elaborate on what exactly their problem is then?

I'm reasonably bullish on intel, but Jobs explained the problem well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlBjNmXvqIM When tech companies become a dominant force in their market they lose their ability to innovate, and it's very hard to change culture once that's happened.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#334

Post by ksec »

Sigh.

1. According to DigiTimes, you should have stopped reading right there.

2. Intel has already been discounting their Server side CPU since combating Zen 2.

3. It is actually listed inside Intel quarterly report where Server margin are under pressure.

4. Did I mention DigiTimes?

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#335

Post by StillBored »

techrat wrote: post #244
colejohnson66 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worth keeping in mind that the silicon lottery is very much a thing at these nanometer sizes. So some market segmentation has to exist. If Intel threw away every chip that had one of the four cores come out broken, they’d lose a lot of money and have to raise prices to compensate. By fusing off the broken and one of the good ones, they can sell it as a two core SKU. Does this excuse Intel’s form of market segmen…

> So some market segmentation has to exist. If Intel threw away every chip that had one of the four cores come out broken, they’d lose a lot of money and have to raise prices to compensate. Except in the case with the Pentium special edition 2 cores and i3 parts, Intel actually designed a separate two core part that wouldn't have the benefit of re-enabling cores among hobbyists. And then there's the artificial segmen…

Its just the behavior of a monopolist where they are making their product line as efficient as possible by milking every last penny out of every single customer.

In a truly competitive ecosystem features that have additional cost would be the only ones that actually cost more, and artificial limits wouldn't work because the vendor with less market share would just throw them in for free.

So you would expect product segmentation along the lines of core counts, dram channels, etc but not really between for example high end desktop/low end server because there would be a gradual mixing of the two markets.

And it turns out the market is still competitive because Arm and AMD are driving a bus through some of those super high margin products that are only artificially differentiated from the lower end parts by the marketing department or some additional engineering time that actually breaks functionality in the product (ecc, locked multipliers, iommu's, 64-bit MMIO windows, etc).

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#336

Post by dragontamer »

einpoklum wrote: post #326
dragontamer wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM maybe. But I'm not convinced that the ARM-alliance (Fujitsu, Apple, Ampere, Neoverse) is quite as unified as you might think. Apple has no apparent goals for cloud/servers, Fujitsu seems entirely focused on the Japanese market, and Ampere Altra isn't reaching critical mass (Amazon prefers a Neoverse rather than joining forces with Ampere / using Altra). As long as the ARM-community is fragmented, their research/i…

> As long as the ARM-community is fragmented Why does this matter? If popular OS distributions consistently target ARM-based CPUs, with a sufficient number of packages (esp. development-support-related) working on them, then who cares about fragmentation? An organization could buy systems with ARM chips and software will basically "just work". Same argument for consumer PCs, although there you have the MS Windows iss…

Motherboard costs, motherboard designs, motherboard support.

The more fragmented your community, the harder it is for software to work consistently across all of them. Intel vs AMD has plenty of obscure issues (see "rr" project, and all the issues getting that debugging tool to work on AMD even though it has the same instruction set).

Sound, WiFi, Ethernet, southbridges, northbridges, PCIe roots. You know, standard compatibility issues that having a ton of SKUs just naturally makes more difficult. Having a "line" of southbridges / consistent motherboards does wonders for compatibility (fix the BIOS/UEFI bug in one motherboard, fix it for all) in Intel/AMD world.

But just as AMD has AMD-specific motherboard bugs, and Intel has Intel-specific motherboard bugs... I'd expect Graviton to have its share of bugs that are inconsistent with Apple M1 or Ampere Altra.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#337

Post by omegalulw »

mhh__ wrote: post #287
omegalulw wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should look at one step further - RISC-V. Open source is the best way to ensure consumers don't get shafted by someone doing the Intel model again or Apple keeping M1 limited to their devices.

You seem to be making the classic mistake of thinking that a given RISC-V processor is open source. The standard is open, the processor's source "code" (design) doesn't have to be. This does not mean RISC-V use wouldn't be a good thing, as it prevents a whole boatload of legal issues, but it just isn't what a lot of people seem to think it is. ARM could end up being a better ISA in the very high-clock high-IPC domain…

I accept that I should have been more careful in my wording. I intended to comment that having an open source ISA that you could create processors for is a huge step in creating competition.

If someone wants to compete with Intel they would have a hard time even if they make an excellent processor since they are unlikely to get a x86 license. With arm you have to pay licensing fee and control of the Isa is still with a private company.

With risc v you can make your own processor and have a good shot in market. You will also have a chance to have a to propose/comment on future ISA changes.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#338

Post by [deleted] »

hajile wrote: post #223
Consultant32452 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very common across many industries. It doesn't cost much more to manufacture a sports car vs a sedan, but the price is very different. No product is based on the price of manufacture, it's based on the price people are willing to pay.

Let’s say it costs 5 billion to design a car (it goes as high as 6 billion) and another 2-3 billion to create all the molds and custom tooling and change over a factory. If you sell 10 million cars, that overhead costs $800 per car. If you sell only 1 million, that’s $8,000 per car. Some sports cars sell even fewer units than that. This is the biggest reason prices are higher.

[deleted]

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#339

Post by mycall »

papercrane wrote: post #155
pclmulqdq wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel and AMD are both like that, and it makes me wonder how much space they have opened up for ARM. I would love a small x86 SoC if it came with the same level of support that an NXP or TI ARM chip has, but they don't.

> Intel and AMD are both like that, and it makes me wonder how much space they have opened up for ARM. Arguably, this is what led to the creation of ARM. Acorn wanted to make a computer with a 286, but Intel ignored them, so they decided to build their own RISC based CPU, the "Acorn RISC Machine".

I would make a good movie or netflix series.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#340

Post by elorant »

rasz wrote: post #313
elorant wrote: post #62

I got an i3 10100f the other day for a mere €80. For a four core cpu that sounds like a steal to me. Way to go Intel.

Congratulations, you paid for new motherboard and ram just to reach level of performance from 6 years ago. Used i7-4790 is ~$80, motherboard and DDR3 ram would cost 1/2 the new counterparts.

Yeah right. DDR3 memory is more expensive than DDR4, even used one, and runs at half the frequency. A six year old mobo doesn't support thunderbolt or usb 3.1 connectors. An i7-4790 runs hotter and doesn't support more than 32GB while a 10th gen i3 goes up to 128GB.
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