United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P • Hacker News Board

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#361

Post by ig1 » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 11:43 AM UTC

ww520 wrote: post #322

logjam wrote: post #159

One minor elephant in the room that only a few seem to be mentioning is the 500+ point selloff on Thursday. On Thursday evening, the economist talking-heads expressed some confusion about what was driving that sell-off on that particular day. There was vague talk of problems in Europe, although there has been worse news out of the Eurozone for months without that kind of drop. On Friday, we get the S & P announcement…

Someone in S&P leaked the downgrade ahead of time?

Unlikely, there's a reasonable chance you could face jail time if you were caught doing such a thing and probably wouldn't be able to work in the financial industry ever again.

So your upside would essentially have to be a huge amount of money, but of course you're much more likely to get caught if you're moving around such a large sum.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#362

Post by OllieJones » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 11:54 AM UTC

Perfect. Obama and Boehner are doing an excellent job of what they are paid to do: transferring the wealth of the USA to Wall Street plutocrats. They've given the sleazeball so-called "rating" agencies the cover they need to demand higher interest rates.

No new taxes. No new jobs. I can't believe that folks who are in their 20s and 30s aren't throwing rocks at people my age (late 50s) for our generational greediness.

By the way, I had a six figure federal tax bill one year, when my cofounders and I sold a startup. Maybe I'm an aberration, but I was proud to be able to chip in that much to the government that paid for ARPA back in the day.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#363

Post by Troll_Whisperer » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 12:12 PM UTC

geuis wrote: post #52

(Reference: http://www.federalbudget.com/ ) Steps to recovery: 1) End all offensive military actions overseas. Finish winding down Iraq and abandon Afghanistan wholesale. These actions have cost several trillion dollars over the last 10 years. We can't get that money back, but we can stop spending more. 2) Defense spending is in the top 3 highest budget expenditures. Cut it by 1 third across the board. Maintain impor…

Maintain important overseas installations such as Japan and Taiwan.

The US hasn't had a base in Taiwan for 30 years. Maybe you're thinking of Korea?

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#364

Post by Unseelie » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 12:36 PM UTC

fabjan wrote: post #282

winestock wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're more liberal than conservative. I'm more conservative than liberal. Bless your heart, I agree with all of your points. At the end of the Cold War, other conservatives were making the same noises that you're making now. For their pains, their careers were destroyed by the people who run the current mainstream conservative movement. Let's take a look at those points of yours. Points 1 & 2. Cut defense spending a…

Point 3. I don't know who these cool people are that you're talking about, "liberals" I assume. I find it hard to believe they will call you heartless if you socialize your health care to make it cheaper and available for all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_health_expenditure_p...

The argument is much that you can't just socialize the health care, you have to tear it to shreds and then paper-mache it back into a more serviceable shape. This is a process that takes time, and would leave people scrambling all over the place. Trying to do it while reducing damage results in monstrosities like Obamacare, and the current situation.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#365

Post by sandstrom » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 12:37 PM UTC

geuis wrote: post #52

(Reference: http://www.federalbudget.com/ ) Steps to recovery: 1) End all offensive military actions overseas. Finish winding down Iraq and abandon Afghanistan wholesale. These actions have cost several trillion dollars over the last 10 years. We can't get that money back, but we can stop spending more. 2) Defense spending is in the top 3 highest budget expenditures. Cut it by 1 third across the board. Maintain impor…

3. The Healthcare System is interesting. The US simply pay a lot more than all other industrialized nations (and still everyone isn't covered).

These two graphs are quite telling: http://www.rwjf.org/images/pr/thumbs/full/45110.jpg http://media.economist.com/images/20090627/CBB677.gif

I think the problem is manifold, but here are some things that may be problematic (please let me know if you agree or disagree):

# Doctors risk getting sued for maltreatment, and thus they prescribe all possible medications, take too many samples and generally spend too much resources.

# On the same note, they also pay large insurances against lawsuits, increasing the costs further.

# Medicine prices are higher in the US, for reasons I don't fully understand.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#366

Post by encoderer » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 12:41 PM UTC

winestock wrote: post #206

trevelyan wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you - as a conservative - consider it rational to cut social security? The program is popular and self-sustaining. and if you read the trustees' reports you'll see it has been in surplus and perfectly solvent since 1985. In a few years it will stop generating surplus revenue for a few decades as the baby boomers move through the system, but it isn't threatened with insolvency. There is an ethical problem with…

First, both parties have raided Social Security, not just Republicans. In fact, both parties have been complicit in the government's financial misfeasance for a long time. Second, you mention the money "to pay back the workers who contributed." There was never any money to pay back. Social Security was always a pay-as-you-go system. Current revenue pays for current appropriations. There was never any "trust fund," an…

First, you're right, both parties have diverted Social Security surpluses. But only one party -- the GOP -- is trying to avoid paying it back, using the SS deficit as a tool to dismantle or alter the program.

Second, that doesn't change the social contract we have with people who have spent their entire lives paying out up to $6000 a year in wages to the fund.

Third, yes, while baby boomers retire, it will run a deficit. But if the surpluses over the last SEVENTY YEARS hadn't been diverted to the general fund, they'd have enough in the "lock box" (that Al Gore advocated for in the 2000 election) to pay for 'boomer retirements.

Look at the predictions made by FDR's guys in 193(4?) about social security. They are surprisingly correct. They saw this coming. The only thing they didn't do is force a segregation of funds.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#367

Post by encoderer » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 12:47 PM UTC

forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #355

redthrowaway wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only problem with slashing military spending and ending foreign interventions is that it has been just that spending, and those interventions, that have made the US the economic powerhouse it is today. The US has a history, stretching back well over a century, of launching military campaigns to support corporate interests. Be it South America, the Middle East, or Asia, the US has invaded countries and toppled gov…

"The US is rich for the same reason Rome, England, and Spain were" Not really, have you been in England, Rome or Spain? Rome legionaries were used to make roads and bridges and mining 90%of their time. If I show you the extensions of the land they "washed" to get mineral you won't believe it(you can see it using google earth, e.g in the north of spain, look for grooves around mountains). England made itself rich beca…

Where do you think the money goes?

Military spending is still government spending. It's going to contractors, vendors and soldiers. They are, respectively: making jobs and selling to everybody (not just the gov't), and buying cars and houses.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#368

Post by kapitan_grant » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 1:25 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #352

geuis wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I have no refutations to any of your comments. I know exactly what you mean. One interesting thing about your first statement, "At the end of the Cold War, other conservatives were making the same noises that you're making now". A few years ago I had the opportunity to hear Francis Fukuyama speak. He was the author of The End of History and a later follow up book. I never knew it before then, but he was one o…

> I also remember stories from my mom's family of 7 kids growing up poor in Rochester, NY in the post-war era. Perhaps I've inherited an attitude of bite-down and deal with reality from their history. I have not much to add to your excellent comments, I just wanted to give you a heads-up. I grew up in a former Eastern-European country, and my childhood and teenage years were very much marked by the economic collapse…

vi opyatj vse pereputalji, moj daragoy paganel.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#369

Post by hermannj314 » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 1:28 PM UTC

epscylonb wrote: post #351

mcantelon wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The problem is corruption. Everything else is a symptom.

The problem is the voters, you get the politicians you deserve. I don't think the american people are dumb or lazy, I think they are very complacent. Americans have become so used to their fairly high standard of living that they are ignoring substantive issues and focusing on trivia. My personal prediction is that the voters will wise up and listen to smart people who understand the issues eventually. At the moment…

The problem isn't the voters, the problem is the process.

There is no way that basing a representative democracy on geographical cohorts can be optimal. I assume it is based originally on logistical constraints, but today is something we just accept because it is how it has always been done.

Wouldn't it make more sense to divide the political arena based on the scope of the issues allowed to be legislated and not on the origin of the legislator? Or maybe we just need a stronger 10th amendment.

It will never happen. I know. Wishful thinking maybe.

Re: United States loses AAA credit rating from S&P

#370

Post by Duff » Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 1:37 PM UTC

winestock wrote: post #134

geuis wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I have no refutations to any of your comments. I know exactly what you mean. One interesting thing about your first statement, "At the end of the Cold War, other conservatives were making the same noises that you're making now". A few years ago I had the opportunity to hear Francis Fukuyama speak. He was the author of The End of History and a later follow up book. I never knew it before then, but he was one o…

When Fukuyama was talking about the Evangelical Christians, I think that he meant their doctrine of "The Rapture" and how it motivates their support for Israel. It's scary just how much of their politics rotate around that. Seriously, Christopher Hitchens (yes, that Christopher Hitchens, the atheist) can get published in National Review because of his support for Israel and for wars to bring democracy to the Middle E…

The string-pullers behind the conservative "movement" see the Evangelical Christians for what they are -- a bunch of easily fooled suckers. (Especially the non-denominational types) They are insecure, fearful people who respond to the crazy message that's being sold.

One of the big motivations behind the pushing of non-denominational, stupid christianity as you get these large flocks of people attracted to the personality of the leadership of their church, but there's no doctrinal basis. The Catholics or Lutherans have their issues, but they won't allow the psychotics to retain power within their religion.