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AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

explainthispaper.com

321–330 of 357 posts

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, the definition of a social construct is a bit nuanced, and it's possible to both believe race is a social construct and that it correlates with things. As a metaphor, let's say we create two categories in the world for all people - tallers (people above six feet in height) and shorters (people below six feet in height). Human height objectively exists, but these categories are social construct…

So if you were going to create a test for "Is this a social construct?" What would it be? It seems like the definition from your comment would be "Could we take this labeling system, and define different labels or the labels differently?" I watched some of the youtube, and in the thought experiment she proposes she take a continuous trait(height) and arbitrarily splits it into two buckets. And talks about how this is…

This reminds me of Astral Codex Ten's (fka SSC) series on the ontology of psychiatric conditions. Basically, you're often faced with the question of whether something is a binary condition you have or don't have which then translates into a more continuous expression of symptoms, or whether it's more like a spectrum where the extreme outliers are deemed "ill" and the rest is just character differences.

It's interesting to think about the various ways to model this, and in many of your cases, the most reasonable model probably depends a lot on context or what it's used for/what statement you're trying to make.

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/?sort=search&search=Onto...

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#322
post #306
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> False. Diet and behavior affect biology amongst other things. Yeah, so if a South-Asian orphan is adopted into a Swedish family, he magically ceases to be of whatever race were his parents and becomes white. That's... not how the concept of human race works.

According to many proponents of CRT or wokeness, absolutely he becomes white. People from typically non-white ethnicities are routinely accused of being white if they adopt cultural traits associated with white people. And it’s entirely possible that if he was adopted at a young enough age, whatever this AI is detecting would read him as white too, assuming his habits and diet affected his development, as they might.…

My claim is that race is not a meaningful concept.

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#323
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain to me how you recognize your mother's voice?

I cannot, but I don't understand why the question is asked. I'm not a convolutional neural network. And recognition of my mother's voice isn't going to have impact on, say, medical treatment for people of a particular race, or who gets a loan granted to them, or whether an autonomous vehicle successfully recognizes a person crossing the street, or whether a drone's auto targeting system decides that this blob of sens…

We rely on human judgements that can't be described all the time in many of the above situations, so why would it be a "major concern" with machines? Machines can be much more thoroughly tested than humans, so they should be more statistically predictable

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#324
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In principle yes, but did you read the paper? They do a lot of completely crazy things like blurring the image until it's just fuzzy blobs, or doing a high-pass filter on it until it just looks like noise (they comment that a human could not even guess that it's an x-ray picture), and they still get very high accuracy. Basically no matter what they try they can still get the race out, with slightly lower percentage n…

>crazy things like blurring the image until it's just fuzzy blobs That... that doesn't influence one of the presumed ways the NN categorizes images: the trend in bone geometry. The "blobs", while fuzzy, still largely retain the relative proportions to each other. Or, in other words, proportions of image elements are invariant for operations of scaling and of blurring.

If that is the case you could write a normal algorithm to get the proportions and see if it separates you data set nicely. (which should be done to prove this assertion)

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That the AI was randomly choosing the correct race 82% of the time by luck? No; as with the article I linked elsewhere in the thread ( https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/31/this-clever-ai-hid-data-fr... ), that the AI might have found some other indicator, like filenames in the data set, or metadata in the images that included patient name, or differences in the length of patient name (often redacted by black rectangle…

As an additional comment on this point: The fact that trained neural networks cannot tell us why they give an answer and the best tool we have to explore that is to wiggle the inputs and see how the black box responds is a major concern for the whole space. Figuring out how to tag data with enough information to generate a "why" was an active area of research ten years ago and still is.

Yep. "Explainable AI" is an active area of research with huge amounts of funding and interest from institutions in the US, EU and China. For example, this is the DARPA programme:

https://www.darpa.mil/program/explainable-artificial-intelli...

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#326
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In principle yes, but did you read the paper? They do a lot of completely crazy things like blurring the image until it's just fuzzy blobs, or doing a high-pass filter on it until it just looks like noise (they comment that a human could not even guess that it's an x-ray picture), and they still get very high accuracy. Basically no matter what they try they can still get the race out, with slightly lower percentage n…

It seems clear that if you just, instead of blurring the image, set the images (or the part of the image with the x-ray scan) to the same image, then that would work to evaluate whether it is getting the information from the image or from some other source. Seeing as this would be easy to do, I imagine that if it is at all plausible from what they know that it is getting information from anything other than the x-ray…

>> I’m not confident in my understanding of the distinction between testing set and validation set.

It's confusing, not least because people refer to "testing" when they mean "validation".

So, suppose you have a dataset, let's call it D, and it doesn't matter what's in it other than "instances". To train a classifier you start by creating two partitions of D: a trainign partition (the "training set"), and a testing partition (the "testing set"). We'll denote them by T₁ for the training set and T₂ for the testing set.

It's typical to use most of D as a training set, for example you may choose 80% of D to be T₁ and 20% to be T₂. Obviously T₁ ∩ T₂ = ∅ and T₁ ∪ T₂ = D.

Now, because T₁ is four times the size of T₂ it's very likely that when you test your classifer on T₂, it will appear much better than it is, just because most of the instances in T₁ aren't represented (by similar instances) in T₂. This is called overfitting to the training set. One way to mitigate it is to perform cross-validation, the most common type of which is k-fold cross-validation.

In k-fold cross-validation, you further partition T₁ to k partitions, or "folds", and then hold out each i'th partition, for i ∈ [1,k], use all the rest k-1 partitions as a training set and test on the i'th held-out partition _during training_. So you train your classifier on partitions 1 ... k minus i, test it on partition i, and repeat this process for all i, recording the performance (accuracy, F1, ROC etc, whatever your metric is). Then you choose the model that performed the best on your chosen metric.

And then you test it on T₂.

To avoid confusion between the k folds of T₁ that you use for testing your training models during cross-validation, on the one hand, and T₂, that you use for testing the model that performed best on cross-validation, on the other hand, we call the testing process performed on the k folds "validation" and each i'th subset of T₁ used for validation a "validation set". And we just call T₂ the "testing set".

The confusion arises because we do actually _test_ on sub-sets of T₁. But T₂ is always the "testing set" and it's never "seen" during training.

As to hyperparameter tuning, this is done _on the testing set_, i.e. T₂. This is A Very Bad Thing™ but there you go. Once you train a classifier and find out that it sucks on T₂, what do you do? Well, you tune the classifier's hyperparameters. Or do a grid search to automate the process. So eventually you overfit your classifier to the test set, because you now essentially have no "unseen" data instances in T₂ - the classifier didn't see the instances in T₂ during training but the trainer did, or, worse, the grid search did, and the classifier's hyperparameters were tuned according to that knowledge. How to avoid that, is a big question, but anyway that's what is done in practice, and the reason for that is that when you do Big Data, you end up needing so much data that despite having terrabytes of it, you never have enough.

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#327
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nature does not create "bins" to sort people or things. Some traits are clustered and we latch on the most visible clusters to define "races". In reality, there is broad overlap and if you look up close, the whole concept becomes hairy. Someone with a father of Scandinavian descent and a mother with African lineage, what is that person, black, white, 50/50? It's the same with gender/sex. While the biological substrat…

Not quite: Sex is very clearly split into two distinct mechanisms. There's definitely sex-linked distributions of different traits, like male and female typical ranges of height, or agreeable personality, risk-seeking/risk aversion and so on, where both sexes operate the same mechanism. Races are mostly clusters in variation within one mechanism - eg. skin color is largely a gradient of more or less melanin, and what…

No, between the two end of the gender spectrum, there is all kinds of shades of grey, starting with persons with intersex genitals and all the way up to women with a more male personality, body hair and so on.

Nature doesn't care about categories and will happily produce all kinds of distributions. It's us humans who try to bin them cleanly.

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite: Sex is very clearly split into two distinct mechanisms. There's definitely sex-linked distributions of different traits, like male and female typical ranges of height, or agreeable personality, risk-seeking/risk aversion and so on, where both sexes operate the same mechanism. Races are mostly clusters in variation within one mechanism - eg. skin color is largely a gradient of more or less melanin, and what…

To advance your point, the ability to bear children is kind of the definitional distinction from which all of these biological distinctions derive as well as tons of social distinctions. Race has no such analogue.

What about infertile women or intersex persons?

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is only true if the distribution of things within the continuum is not "lumpy". For height it isn't, but for other things it is. For example gender is highly bimodal, yet still a continuum. Would you say that "male" and "female" are subjective socially constructed categories? Of course not. Race is probably somewhere in-between. There are people all over the spectrum but there are pretty clear large groups with…

I would argue that "male" and "female" can be subjective socially constructed categories in certain contexts. For example, intersex people exist, people with hormone conditions exist. Whether these people are male or female is a very hairy and nuanced conversation that is viewed on a case-by-case basis, and sometimes creates controversies, such as women who have XY chromosomes and naturally elevated testosterone bein…

Right, but the existence of edge cases does not mean that the "male" and "female" labels are completely arbitrary.

The words "bed" and "sofa" aren't arbitrary social constructs just because sofabeds exist.

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#330
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite: Sex is very clearly split into two distinct mechanisms. There's definitely sex-linked distributions of different traits, like male and female typical ranges of height, or agreeable personality, risk-seeking/risk aversion and so on, where both sexes operate the same mechanism. Races are mostly clusters in variation within one mechanism - eg. skin color is largely a gradient of more or less melanin, and what…

No, between the two end of the gender spectrum, there is all kinds of shades of grey, starting with persons with intersex genitals and all the way up to women with a more male personality, body hair and so on. Nature doesn't care about categories and will happily produce all kinds of distributions. It's us humans who try to bin them cleanly.

Intersex conditions are disorders of physical sex development, and the specific disorders themselves most of the time sex-specific. It is a physical medical condition, and they certainly do not create a spectrum of sex: There is not a third or an inbetween kind of breeding setup, just bugs in building the proper things. Bugs that are insanely rare.

Women with more male-like personality goes into that "variation in a shared system that has sex-linked distributions": There are women that have more typically male personality configurations and the reverse, just as there are tall and short people. Nothing surprising about that, and it doesn't relate to sex itself being a binary dictated by two different reproductive mechanisms.

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