Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

bmj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

861–870 of 1001 posts

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#861

Post by snovv_crash »

phkahler wrote: post #790
MSM wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? >What about drinking and smoking? There's a lot of investment in trying to fix these problems already, or at least offset the costs. For example, there are "sin taxes" for things like cigarettes and alcohol, which means smokers and drinkers are paying disproportionately more taxes than those that don't. You could argue that overweight folks are also paying disprop…

>> All that aside though- forcing fat people to get skinny isn't a valid comparison to forcing people to take a vaccine. One takes a couple minutes and the other is something requiring an hour or more of dedicated time per day for potentially years Well we could just tell the fat people they aren't allowed to eat in restaurants and can't keep their jobs. That way they won't be able afford or get the food that keeps t…

I mean, that would work in the hypothetical situation where being skinny was a single free shot away, right.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#862

Post by clort »

kcplate wrote: post #674
MSM wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? >What about drinking and smoking? There's a lot of investment in trying to fix these problems already, or at least offset the costs. For example, there are "sin taxes" for things like cigarettes and alcohol, which means smokers and drinkers are paying disproportionately more taxes than those that don't. You could argue that overweight folks are also paying disprop…

> You could argue that overweight folks are also paying disproportionately more simply by buying more food than someone who weighs 20% less. Overweight people pay their tax in a significant decrease in their quality of life. Eating unhealthy is way way cheaper. I can confirm both after 170lbs of weight loss. My food budget quadrupled. Rice, pasta, and white bread are cheap. Meat and veggies, not so much.

It sounds good but I find this framing uncomfortable because tax is not a penalty. Overweight people pay a penalty in a significant decrease in their quality of life, yes. That is not a tax though - tax is a contribution to society, and a decrease in one persons quality of life is not a contribution.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#863

Post by tayo42 »

ixacto wrote: post #536
kristjansson wrote: post #525

Because it's a terrible policy prescription. If natural immunity is acceptable, what proportion of the unvaccinated-uninfected population will just take the risk? Half? More? Millions of people will just (continue to) take the risk, get sick, go to hospital, and die (in decreasing proportions), incurring substantial personal and social costs along the way. Accepting only vaccination as evidence of protection reduces…

To reply as the devils advocate to this comment, what is the tolerance to social costs that society is willing to bear? Also why would one segment of society have to do something that it doesn't want e.g. not bear risk if they want to? Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? Overweight and obesity are going to cost much more in increased healthcare costs than COVID will in the coming decades (pls prove m…

> I guess I don't see where your argument about societal costs doesn't become a slippery slope.

Your admitting this, why even bring up your points if you know they dont matter? There's no reason to argue this point

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#864

Post by tayo42 »

Johnny555 wrote: post #783
dham wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's say, hypothetically, there existed a free shot which would immediately make its recipient a perfectly lean 20 BMI and grants all the benefits of health and exercise without the work I would be very skeptical and wonder what the downside is

I would be very skeptical and wonder what the downside is I would too, but this is the same thing that anti-vaxxers are saying about the COVID vaccine

theres a track record of bullshit get skinny stuff. there isnt a history of marketing vaccines for profit.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#865

Post by burnished »

fuzxi wrote: post #726
MSM wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? >What about drinking and smoking? There's a lot of investment in trying to fix these problems already, or at least offset the costs. For example, there are "sin taxes" for things like cigarettes and alcohol, which means smokers and drinkers are paying disproportionately more taxes than those that don't. You could argue that overweight folks are also paying disprop…

>One takes a couple minutes and the other is something requiring an hour or more of dedicated time per day for potentially years (or a whole lifetime! Nope. You don't have to dedicate time to exercising to lose weight, you can just eat less.

Food prep takes time. Even if we abandon looking at it as as a strictly energy in energy out situation, we probably still recognize that healthier foods take more time than unhealthy foods.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#866

Post by tayo42 »

collegeburner wrote: post #639
MSM wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? >What about drinking and smoking? There's a lot of investment in trying to fix these problems already, or at least offset the costs. For example, there are "sin taxes" for things like cigarettes and alcohol, which means smokers and drinkers are paying disproportionately more taxes than those that don't. You could argue that overweight folks are also paying disprop…

Except the food you eat to get fat is often much cheaper than the food to stay healthy. Produce is expensive per calorie, lean meat is expensive per calorie, cooking takes time and effort, and a gym membership is expensive. This is one of the reasons why obesity is so prevalent, it's much easier than staying healthy. It's not just 20% more of what healthy people eat.

> Produce is expensive per calorie,

Thats kind of the point of eating fresh food, your filled with less calories. you eat less, your at a healthy weight.

That not the stuff getting people fat. Look how many calories are in mcdonals burgers. People are getting fat becasue they're uneducated. They drink sodas, sweet teas, eat candy and excessive alcohol

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#867

Post by heisenbit »

boplicity wrote: post #703
ixacto wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To reply as the devils advocate to this comment, what is the tolerance to social costs that society is willing to bear? Also why would one segment of society have to do something that it doesn't want e.g. not bear risk if they want to? Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? Overweight and obesity are going to cost much more in increased healthcare costs than COVID will in the coming decades (pls prove m…

You are assuming that getting vaccinated is a burden, and then comparing it to challenges that many people take years, or longer, to overcome. That makes absolutely no sense. Getting vaccinated takes just a few minutes, and has no long term consequences for virtually everyone, and does not require ongoing effort of any kind. In no way is getting vaccinated comparable to struggling with obesity, quitting cigarettes, o…

I‘m not anti-vax, got vaccinated twice but I also have a health condition that was made worse by the second round and it took me 3 months to get back where I was. At times I was thinking checking myself into hospital to get support dealing with the fallout. Talking to a specialist who sees lots of people like me (with not so standard immune systems) she confirmed that my experience was not uncommon at all.

Here in Germany we have digitally signed vax certificates & photo ids but still count a PCR positive proven infection confirmed by a doctor as equivalent.

I struggle to understand any concerns in the US - considering the general state of IDs and certificates - about treating one infection like one shot. It makes no medical and no proof sense. And however good and generally safe a shot is it is still a medical procedure and medical ethics apply.

The argument that one shot is enough sends the wrong message should be dwarfed by concerns what message is sent by ignoring globally recognized insights and medical ethics.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#868

Post by snovv_crash »

logicchains wrote: post #833
boplicity wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming that getting vaccinated is a burden, and then comparing it to challenges that many people take years, or longer, to overcome. That makes absolutely no sense. Getting vaccinated takes just a few minutes, and has no long term consequences for virtually everyone, and does not require ongoing effort of any kind. In no way is getting vaccinated comparable to struggling with obesity, quitting cigarettes, o…

It does have consequences in some, e.g. teenagers are more likely to be hospitalised for a side effect of the vax than they are to be hospitalised for covid: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v...

Could you give me both of those numbers as a percentage, and then compare it to the risk of, oh, let's say driving a car 100 miles in an urban area?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#869

Post by worker767424 »

jowday wrote: post #376
bedhead wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. We have been so unbelievably myopic with COVID it truly hurts my head. Even today, ask someone who's COVID-obsessed, "What exactly is your longer-term plan here?" and watch as their mind breaks down. Too many people have completely stopped thinking about what they're trying to achieve and how they're going to do it. Half the country is just stuck, focused on short-term and no attention paid to anything else and…

>Half the country is just stuck, focused on short-term and no attention paid to anything else and it's freakin disastrous. The pandemic is largely over culturally and mentally for pretty much all of the country - I'm in the middle of San Francisco and the only real remaining enforced anti-COVID measures are flashing your vaccine card before going into bars, masks inside of gyms, and masking and demasking when you ent…

> masking and demasking when you enter restaurants

I've seen it, but this just seems silly. I think the way bars work is you walk in with a mask, take it off, and put it on when you go to the restroom?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#870

Post by glogla »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #746
js2 wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I drink or smoke or I’m overweight, that doesn’t affect the health of my neighbor. It also doesn’t overcrowd hospitals causing innocent people to die because they can’t find treatment[1]. There also isn’t a vaccine for being overweight. (We should probably mandate seasonal flu vaccines too.) 1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/12/alabama-ray...

It does because you place disproportionate strain on the healthcare system, which limits its accessibility to others. There also is a 100% successful method for losing weight, it's just that people can't or choose not to follow it, but we could mandate it and force them to. For their own good and the good of the healthcare system. (We probably should not mandate that or any other drug or medical treatment)

If you care about healthcare costs, think about all those antivaxx idiots who end up on oxygen and ventilator before finally kicking the bucket. Way more money than obesity!
Post reply on HN