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Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

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Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#731

Post by dukeofdoom »

wwweston wrote: post #712
ghiculescu wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If hospitals didn’t overflow and society didn’t crumble for most of 2020 (when there was 0% vaccination), it’s odd to argue that it will now that there is 65% vaccination.

It never took that large of a percentage of the population to get sick at once to overwhelm hospital capacity. Some tenths of a percent could probably it. 35% of the population vulnerable means there's plenty of room for that. Enough people do OK w/o interventions that "social collapse" probably wasn't ever going to be the outcome (short of more virulent variants), it's just whether more or fewer of the people for wh…

Either the vaccine works or it doesn't. So why are the numbers going up if it's working?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#732

Post by soperj »

throwawayfear wrote: post #678
soperj wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they did, and they are now. Society didn't crumble because of extreme monetary policy measures.

No they didn't, and not they aren't. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/09/covid-hos... In other words, the study suggests that roughly half of all the hospitalized patients showing up on COVID-data dashboards in 2021 may have been admitted for another reason entirely, or had only a mild presentation of disease.

then why are hospitals in texas so full that people are having their appendix rupture while they wait for 7 hours to be admitted?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#733

Post by OrvalWintermute »

jeromegv wrote: post #659
opnitro wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You provide 3 sources, yet don't cite a source for the claim that ~10k have died from the vaccine. Could we have a citation for that one?

That person is writing in a way that looks fact based but is not. As you noticed, some statements of what is supposed to be accepted as true are false. For example, all the vaccines still protect extremely well against hospitalization and death EVEN with Delta. Which is what this whole discussion is about, why vaccines help to keep our hospitals open. So the fact that they would say that the vaccine isn't really help…

The current number is 14,506 deaths from covid vaccines according to

https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covi...

The last time I did the data reports from VAERS, it appears the numbers were tweaked after the fact, and that was some time ago.

However, there is also data with different numbers at https://openvaers.com/covid-data

If you believe the VAERS under-reporting phenomenon is correct, then numbers could be significantly higher. Because the data is not verified though, there are bound to be data quality issues, both under and over.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#734

Post by johnnyApplePRNG »

boplicity wrote: post #703
ixacto wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To reply as the devils advocate to this comment, what is the tolerance to social costs that society is willing to bear? Also why would one segment of society have to do something that it doesn't want e.g. not bear risk if they want to? Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? Overweight and obesity are going to cost much more in increased healthcare costs than COVID will in the coming decades (pls prove m…

You are assuming that getting vaccinated is a burden, and then comparing it to challenges that many people take years, or longer, to overcome. That makes absolutely no sense. Getting vaccinated takes just a few minutes, and has no long term consequences for virtually everyone, and does not require ongoing effort of any kind. In no way is getting vaccinated comparable to struggling with obesity, quitting cigarettes, o…

We could choose to not sell pure sugar as food in grocery stores, cigarettes, alcohol, or firearms for that matter in the first place...

Funny enough, during the initial/strictest lockdowns in Ontario Canada, the liquor stores were one of the only stores allowed to be open to the public.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#735

Post by soperj »

nostrademons wrote: post #544
soperj wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they did, and they are now. Society didn't crumble because of extreme monetary policy measures.

Arguably society is in the process of crumbling now. Jan 6th was part of that, as were the BLM protests, the anti-vax protests, the contentious school-board meetings, the constant tug-of-war between Federal/state/local/individual authorities, high inflation, supply shortages, people refusing to go back to work, etc.

BLM protests were part of society functioning, not crumbling. Police murdering people and getting away with it would be the society crumbling piece.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#736

Post by OrvalWintermute »

volker48 wrote: post #653
OrvalWintermute wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because it's a terrible policy prescription. If natural immunity is acceptable, what proportion of the unvaccinated-uninfected population will just take the risk? Half? More? What we know : We know that vaccines are of great value for high risk populations. We know that vaccines are contraindicated for a number of patients and have some pretty severe side effects for those with allergies. We know that the vaccines…

> We know that the vaccine efficacy is greatly reduced with Delta variants Even with Delta vaccinated have 5X reduced risk of infection https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm . > undetermined number of patients allegedly around 10k have died from covid vaccine side effects Have you seen a credible source with this information?

The VAERS data extracts have that number.

The very last report I did myself, personally, showed 7k deaths, but I think that was US deaths only.

Maybe you should crunch the numbers yourself from VAERS, the openvaers site has data on it too, particular to covid19.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#737

Post by js2 »

ixacto wrote: post #536
kristjansson wrote: post #525

Because it's a terrible policy prescription. If natural immunity is acceptable, what proportion of the unvaccinated-uninfected population will just take the risk? Half? More? Millions of people will just (continue to) take the risk, get sick, go to hospital, and die (in decreasing proportions), incurring substantial personal and social costs along the way. Accepting only vaccination as evidence of protection reduces…

To reply as the devils advocate to this comment, what is the tolerance to social costs that society is willing to bear? Also why would one segment of society have to do something that it doesn't want e.g. not bear risk if they want to? Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? Overweight and obesity are going to cost much more in increased healthcare costs than COVID will in the coming decades (pls prove m…

When I drink or smoke or I’m overweight, that doesn’t affect the health of my neighbor. It also doesn’t overcrowd hospitals causing innocent people to die because they can’t find treatment[1].

There also isn’t a vaccine for being overweight.

(We should probably mandate seasonal flu vaccines too.)

1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/12/alabama-ray...

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#738

Post by ergocoder »

jjeaff wrote: post #120
darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

I think the biggest issue is that a lot of people think they had covid previously but didn't get tested so they don't really know. I thought I had covid early in the pandemic. Took a serology test and found out that I had not had it. I suspect a lot of people that think they had it are the same.

Then, say that instead of lying that natural immunity doesn't work.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#739

Post by mr_toad »

kristjansson wrote: post #525

Because it's a terrible policy prescription. If natural immunity is acceptable, what proportion of the unvaccinated-uninfected population will just take the risk? Half? More? Millions of people will just (continue to) take the risk, get sick, go to hospital, and die (in decreasing proportions), incurring substantial personal and social costs along the way. Accepting only vaccination as evidence of protection reduces…

> Accepting only vaccination as evidence of protection reduces the size of that risk-taking population, and the concomitant social costs.

That is effectively coercing people to undertake a medical procedure for their own or for society’s good. The ethics of doing that should be concerning, considering the social and ethnic makeup of the vaccine hesitant, and the checkered history of coercive medical intervention.

I’d much rather see the carrot used than the stick.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#740

Post by spaginal »

boplicity wrote: post #703
ixacto wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To reply as the devils advocate to this comment, what is the tolerance to social costs that society is willing to bear? Also why would one segment of society have to do something that it doesn't want e.g. not bear risk if they want to? Should we tell people to get their BMI under 25 too? Overweight and obesity are going to cost much more in increased healthcare costs than COVID will in the coming decades (pls prove m…

You are assuming that getting vaccinated is a burden, and then comparing it to challenges that many people take years, or longer, to overcome. That makes absolutely no sense. Getting vaccinated takes just a few minutes, and has no long term consequences for virtually everyone, and does not require ongoing effort of any kind. In no way is getting vaccinated comparable to struggling with obesity, quitting cigarettes, o…

They haven’t studied these genetic therapies long term to know if what you assert is the case. We already know there are health issues associated now with the mrna shots.

We could see a rash of issues show up in the next couple of years.

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