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Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

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Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#281
The only surprise is that it took so long, in fact I'd argue Intel isn't doing it enough. Intel is losing marketshare and has some power hungry chips, however financially it's doing well. It makes a lot of sense to compensate via price.

As I keep saying, Intel is very far from dead. A company does not need to have the topmost performing chips to do well, not anymore than AMD/TSMC needed to in the past. Especially not in this seller's chip market.

It just means Intel needs to invest more for some more time and will lose some marketshare. If in 3-5 years Intel will not have improved its processors in a nonmarginal way then they'll be in trouble.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Businesses don't owe you a product (before you pay for it) any more than you owe them loyalty after you pay for something. This is itself a moral claim. You may choose to base your morals on capitalism, but capitalism itself doesn't force that moral choice. > That's the point of markets and competition. And the point of landmines is to blow people's legs off, but the existence of landmines does not morally justify…

So, if I had changed to preface with "In today's western society, it is generally accepted that ... ", we'd be on a level playing field? That's reasonable.

You could make that claim, but I disagree that it is generally accepted that companies destroying products is a morally good thing.

I don't know anyone in western society who thinks things like planned obsolenscence are to be admired.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#283
post #80

It's amazing how far Intel has fallen. The 10nm debacle exposed how far they've fallen behind on fabs to the point that they're outsourcing to TSMC. Like, how humiliating must that be? Intel completely missed the mobile revolution. They had a stake in that race but sold it (ie XScale). Intel's product segmentation is bewildering. They've also kept features "enterprise" only to prop up high server chip prices to the d…

>The 10nm debacle exposed how far they've fallen behind on fabs to the point that they're outsourcing to TSMC. Like, how humiliating must that be?

Every chip Intel buys from TSMC is a chip not made by its competitors. Doing this is extremely useful for Intel to the point I wonder why TSMC agreed in the first place.

After all, eventually Intel will improve their fabs, and then it's the non-Intel players that will order from TSMC. Why hamper TSMC's future customers? Intel must have offered a lot of money.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#284
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The M1 (ok, in the 7 and 8 GPU core configurations) is in the Macbook air, Macbook pro, Ipad, Imac, and Mac mini...

Another commenter (dragontamer) pointed out elsewhere in the thread that Apple might be doing what Sony did for the PS3 (since Sony also made custom chips that had to perform identically in the end product): the strategy Sony took was to actually make better chips than advertised for the PS3, and disable the extra cores. That means that if one of the cores is broken, you can still sell it in a PS3; you were going to…

We know from die shots that the M1 chips aren't disabling CPU cores, or any GPU cores other than the 7 vs 8 binning.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't comparing to AMD. I've had few enough interactions with AMD that I can't pass judgement, but from the few I've had were consistent with your assessment. AMD was a complete black hole. My interactions with Intel were lightyears ahead of AMD. But Intel, in turn, was lightyears behind Analog, Linear, Maxim, TI, and most other vendors I've dealt with (this was before Analog gobbled Linear and Maxim up).

XMG (a gaming laptop brand) even publicly announced that AMD would not meet their request for validation samples of Ryzen 5800 and 5900 CPUs. CPUs that have been launched and are shipping to other customers already. https://www.reddit.com/r/XMG_gg/comments/n4i3x2/update_threa...

If AMD at at 100% production capacity, why would they want to increase demand? Surely supplying validation samples could only hurt AMD in that situation (technical costs, disappointing the customer when the customer want to shift to production).

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe 'amoral' is a bit strong, but I think there is something wrong with an economic system where producers destroy wealth, rather than distribute all that is produced. If it's wrong for the government to pay farmers to burn crops during a depression, then it's wrong for a monopoly to disable chip capabilities during a chip shortage.

I think you're framing the supply chain in a very personal (strawman) way. The problem is just one of "efficiency". The production is not perfectly aligned with where people are willing to spend money. A purely efficient market exists only in theory / textbooks / Adam Smith's Treatise. The chips that roll off a fab are not done. They aren't "burning crops". Perhaps they are abandoned (not completed) perhaps because t…

> The problem is just one of "efficiency". The production is not perfectly aligned with where people are willing to spend money. A purely efficient market exists only in theory / textbooks / Adam Smith's Treatise.

Destroying wealth is not appropriate the market mechanism to deal with disequilibrium. Producers should either lower the price to meet the market or hold inventory if they anticipate increased future demand. However, the latter may be harder to do in the CPU business because inventory depreciates rapidly.

Intel has hitherto been minimally affected by market pressures because they held an effective monopoly on the CPU market though that is fast changing.

So, there is nothing necessarily "efficient" about what Intel is doing. They're maximising their returns through price discrimination at the expense of allocative efficiency.

> The chips that roll off a fab are not done. They aren't "burning crops". Perhaps they are abandoned (not completed) perhaps because they need to recoup or save resources to focus on finishing and shipping the working (full core) products. They aren't driving their trucks of finished products into the ocean.

That may be true in some cases, but not in others. I'm speaking directly to the case where a component is deliberately modified to reduce its capability for the specific purpose of price discrimination.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#287
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After purchasing an M1, i'm starting to realize how viable ARM is as a main platform. Nearly everything I want to run on it has a natively built version, and runs great on it. I could easily move anything I've built to a server running ARM with little frustration. I think that may be a bigger part of the coming future.

I think we should look at one step further - RISC-V. Open source is the best way to ensure consumers don't get shafted by someone doing the Intel model again or Apple keeping M1 limited to their devices.

You seem to be making the classic mistake of thinking that a given RISC-V processor is open source. The standard is open, the processor's source "code" (design) doesn't have to be.

This does not mean RISC-V use wouldn't be a good thing, as it prevents a whole boatload of legal issues, but it just isn't what a lot of people seem to think it is.

ARM could end up being a better ISA in the very high-clock high-IPC domain, it remains to be seen.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#288
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so optimistic. There are some technical things Microsoft did poorly when going from x86 to x86-64, which in my opinion delayed the transition of a lot of software by a decade. And this is with processors that can run both instruction sets natively, where no actual software emulation was required. To give some context (this started with Windows Server 2003 64-bit and is still how it works in Windows 11): Inste…

Microsoft announced ARM64EC. It’s an ABI for ARM64 that is similar to x64. They say it allows mixing x64 and ARM64 DLLs in the same process. https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2021/06/28/announ...

Cool - perhaps that opens the way for a x64+ARM big.LITTLE processor, with a few hot fast x64 AMD cores (big) and a lot of slow efficient ARM cores (little).

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other side, just take a "Tragerl" of beer (German beer crate with 20x0.5l): - It weighs much more than a crate of 20x0.5l aluminium cans or plastic bottles - it is more voluminous: glass bottles have way thicker walls and they need plastic spacers to prevent the bottles from crashing each other, whereas cans and bottles can be shrinkwrapped just fine) - the return logistics are simpler: glass bottles and the c…

> The switch to plastics has saved lots of money and environmental pollution in logistics Ah, but this is debatable! https://www.wri.org/insights/planes-trains-and-big-automobil... "Trains move 32% of goods in the United States, but generate only 6% of freight-related greenhouse gas emissions. Meanwhile trucks account for 40% of American freight transport and 60% of freight-related emissions." From the beginning of t…

That's an interesting point that without the interstate highway system (which had many benefits) we might be using rail a lot more than we are currently and therefore emitting less CO2.

Another way of looking at it is that we could consider the interstate highways only half-complete, and that the important part that was never built was an electrical delivery system for the cars and trucks that use it, so they can recharge their batteries without even stopping. It's what we would have been forced to build if fossil fuels weren't plentiful and cheap and we still wanted to use cars and trucks for our main transportation. We could have built that in the 70's in response to the oil crisis, and we could've had 50 years of electric vehicles by now, and it could have worked even using awful lead-acid batteries if cars didn't have to go more than twenty miles or so between electrified road sections.

Building the same thing now would be a lot easier. Battery technology is good enough that it would only be needed at regular intervals on the major freeways, and we can pair the electrified road sections with cheap solar power where it makes sense to do so.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#290
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple sells a 7 core and 8 core version of their M1 chips. Maybe Intel and AMD ship CPUs with even more cores disabled but it's not like Apple doesn't do this at all.

Apple doesnt sell chips at all. Next.

What are you talking about? Apple certainly sells chips -- you just have to buy an entire computer to get it.
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