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Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

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Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#391

Post by orwin »

thedrbrian wrote: post #220
orwin wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is, actually, antibody test. They are quite costly however. Im my country, getting infected count as the 1rst dose (yes, i know, natural immunity is better with "real" infections, but rememeber that Covid sometime start an auto-immune disease, it's hard to test for this, so its less costly to just vaccinate people (the jab cost 12E)). No scientific response. This is mostly pragmatic, and probably politic too. I…

You can get them for free in the uk https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid...

Yeah, me too, not my point.

Imagine half the uk population wanted to get tested before getting the vaccine, the cost for the NIH would be way higher than just vaccinating everybody. You can't tell people `if the antibody test is positive, you don't have to get vaccinated`, at least not until the vast majority is already vaccinated. And even then, it's mostly lost money.

You could have told people "pay for your own test", but in this case, the fabrication and distribution of those test would slow down the vaccination. And you have to make sure that the test are not faked, so a doctor should verify that the test was yours. I know some doctors who faked smallpox vaccine, so you can imagine how much of a good idea this is.

Also, even if the individual cost is not that high, telling people to `pay not to get vaccinated` (because it would've been spin like this, I've read UK newspapers) is not the best idea want the biggest issues for most western government is lack of trust.

So: it is more pragmatic to jab everybody. Easier to orchestrate, you don't expose your leadership too much. Overall, best solution for the governments. Is it the best solution for the population? Debatable. I'd say its the most cost-effective, the one with the less headaches, so yes?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#392

Post by pessimizer »

ars wrote: post #210
shmatt wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and more so, its extremely hard to track peoples blood test. Adobe Acrobat can easily change anyones name on a piece of paper with a blood test result, there wouldn't be a way to confirm this person has antibodies In Israel a high antibody blood test gives you a "vaccine passport" for 6 months. ...to get that, you sign up for the blood test using your government ID # (SSN for the US), the government gets your results…

> Adobe Acrobat can easily change anyones name on a piece of paper with a blood test result It's even easier to fake vaccination status. Blank COVID cards are widely available. Most of them are handwritten - and even when vaccinated, they give them to you blank, you fill in your own name at home. > Now, does anyone think the US can pull off getting peoples SSN , connect it to a blood test, send the SSN+result to the…

> It's even easier to fake vaccination status. Blank COVID cards are widely available. Most of them are handwritten - and even when vaccinated, they give them to you blank, you fill in your own name at home.

That's absolutely true, because the government response has been disorganized and bullshit. It's also why vax passes won't work; because the records are probably trash.

> No, Americans are not bad at that - rather they don't want that. Don't confuse the two.

No, we're really shit at it. Everybody who has been vaccinated would love for the government to have kept track of it, and would love to be able to ask for or give an easy proof of it. In my personal experience, the unvaccinated are also liars. They would, of course, not want it to be tracked, because they would like to continue to lie.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#393

Post by djrogers »

summerlight wrote: post #366
throwaway894345 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Probably because everyone and their uncle self-diagnosed a bad cold as COVID-19 and plenty more would lie about having natural immunity. Serology is a thing, as are records of positive test results. Also, in many cases, "proof of vaccination" includes a cell phone photo of the piece of paper they handed out when you got a vaccine, so as it stands, lying is pretty easy. > Vaccines are safe and available yet we…

> Also, in many cases, "proof of vaccination" includes a cell phone photo of the piece of paper they handed out when you got a vaccine, so as it stands, lying is pretty easy. One critical difference is that there will be legal consequences if you're using a fake proof of vaccination.

That makes absolutely no sense, why would the same penalties not apply for lying about natural immunity?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#394

Post by fortuna86 »

vibrato2 wrote: post #239
lghh wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why death is the only thing we're trying to avoid. Currently, children's ICUs in Oklahoma are full in part due to the number of Covid patients. I'd rather my child not end up in the hospital, much less be turned away from one in a time of need.

Did you miss the data point that boys are 6x more likely to be affected from the therapy than the illness?

Did you miss the point where any death is likely preventable and 400+ in the US is still too many ?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#395

Post by tshaddox »

EGreg wrote: post #296
throwaway894345 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Probably because everyone and their uncle self-diagnosed a bad cold as COVID-19 and plenty more would lie about having natural immunity. Serology is a thing, as are records of positive test results. Also, in many cases, "proof of vaccination" includes a cell phone photo of the piece of paper they handed out when you got a vaccine, so as it stands, lying is pretty easy. > Vaccines are safe and available yet we…

Do some people simply photoshop their names onto the cards and show them on their phones ? Is it really such a dumb system?

That doesn't strike me as particularly dumb. It's pretty easy to print out a fake driver's license (or use someone else's) that's going to work fine getting into most bars, and the risks of getting into legal trouble for attempting to use a fake ID to buy alcohol are probably pretty similar to the risks of using a fake vaccine card, and yet most people don't argue that that system is a dumb way to enforce the drinking age (ignoring whether the drinking age itself is a reasonable policy).

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#397

Post by rajin444 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #325
weaksauce wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there was a fitness instructor in colorado that didn't get the vaccine because he had tested and had antibodies in his blood. then he got covid again(or maybe the first time?) and it just absolutely decimated his body. he lost 70 lbs and is walking around with an oxygen bottle. the only real way to make sure you have proper antibodies and B and T cell responses is to have either gotten a symptomatic case of covid tha…

Bill Phillips, author of Body For Life and founder of EAS supplements before selling it to Abbott. https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article253708748.htm... (Unvaccinated fitness guru gets COVID and spends 47 days intubated. ‘I made a mistake’) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Phillips_(author)

He has likely done major damage to his body through the use of steroids. He was a professional bodybuilder who admitted to using. This is definitely not a good anecdote.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#398

Post by swader999 »

jowday wrote: post #319
swader999 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are previously infected or not in a vulnerable group its not selfish or stupid to avoid this vaccine. You can manage it with monoclonal antibodies if you do get a severe outcome. Mass vaccinating the entire population for a respiratory virus that mutates so easily creates a whole host of other problems and a never ending pandemic of variants that may actually get more severe.

>If you are previously infected or not in a vulnerable group its not selfish or stupid to avoid this vaccine. You can manage it with monoclonal antibodies if you do get a severe outcome. But there's a chance of you spreading the infection to someone who's vulnerable in the process of recovering from it. Or someone else who ends up spreading it to someone who's vulnerable. Could just be that you pass by someone in you…

If you are naive and not vaccinated then when you get covid you'll likely notice it, isolate and not spread it (if it is particularly severe you may be bed ridden and unable to be social). If vaccinated and getting a less severe infection you may not need to isolate and likely be more social and prone to spread it.

Yearly flu shots if they went out to the entire population would most likely create a similar problem. But with only 40% of the uptake and usually to the more vulnerable they haven't had this effect.

Mass vaccinations to a virus like polio make perfect sense because this virus is not able to mutate and still successfully infect the host. You can confer long lasting immunity with vacinations on this. The spike protein on Sars can mutate many ways to Sunday and still break through the cell wall. So your constantly reformulating and boosting and trying to keep ahead of a changing target that if left to its own devices would just peter out due to it becoming less and less severe (too severe and it dies due to less transmission, less severe get more transmission and win and the virus becomes more benign over time).

With a leaky vacccine you can be a happy chicken with a severe variant and be totally fine until your immunity wanes and the next designed booster is off the mark. See this: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-m...

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#399

Post by throwaway894345 »

wpietri wrote: post #276
throwaway894345 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Probably because everyone and their uncle self-diagnosed a bad cold as COVID-19 and plenty more would lie about having natural immunity. Serology is a thing, as are records of positive test results. Also, in many cases, "proof of vaccination" includes a cell phone photo of the piece of paper they handed out when you got a vaccine, so as it stands, lying is pretty easy. > Vaccines are safe and available yet we…

> Serology is a thing, as are records of positive test results. Serology is a thing, sure. But two points: Getting a serum test rather than getting the vaccine is not going to be cheaper, easier, or better studied. We are not constrained on vaccine supply. So the practical advantage of allowing a totally different pathway is not obvious. Creating another pathway adds a lot of cognitive load and confusion. The bar bou…

If the bar bouncer can see a card that says you have been vaccinated then they can see a card that says you have covid antibodies or that you have had a positive covid test at some point in the past. I don't think this is too burdensome for our hypothetical bouncer.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#400

Post by gojomo »

nobody9999 wrote: post #57
graeme wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: goddamnit, I see this is being downvoted despite being 100% correct. Yes, infections generate strong immunity. Here is a study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... ————————— It is pretty useful though. Studies have found it compares well with vaccines or better. However like vaccines it also fades. And prior immunity + infection is way better than prior immunity, so being infected no…

>It is pretty useful though. Studies have found it compares well with vaccines or better. My understanding was that there were many more studies of vaccine protection than immunity after infection. Some links to those studies of immunity after infection would be greatly appreciated.

There are more RCTs about vaccination – because of the taboo against human challenge trials, even among the vaccinated.

But there's more evidence for natural immunity, from the 1B+ people worldwide who've had COVID & recovered.

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