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Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

bmj.com

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Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#101

Post by Pxtl »

extheat wrote: post #43

Given the political discussions about “booster shots”, I find this quote pretty interesting: > Other studies suggest that a two dose regimen may be counterproductive. One found that in people with past infections, the first dose boosted T cells and antibodies but that the second dose seemed to indicate an “exhaustion,” and in some cases even a deletion, of T cells.34 “I’m not here to say that it’s harmful,” says Bert…

That sounds more like an argument for the Canadian model where we went several months between shots (on the assumption that a high percentage of the populace partially-protected was more useful than a small percentage fully protected). I'm assuming semiannual or quarterly shots will be where we land until Covid is no longer a major threat.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#103

Post by advisedwang »

darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

I mean for someone with natural immunity to get the vaccine is not going to reduce their immunity, and might boost it (or might not). So with fairly little downside, it makes sense to vaccinate them surely?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#104

Post by toxik »

darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

I suspect the marginal utility is better in having a larger % vaccinated. If those on the fence about it hear that there are circumstances where it’s better to only take one dose, or none, many won’t vaccinate at all because it seems less important.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#105

Post by contravariant »

darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

It's deeply unfortunate but not really surprising, these kinds of large scale experiments on humans are rather difficult to organize (for good reason) and outside of a naturally occurring disaster may not have happened at all.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#106

Post by toxik »

advisedwang wrote: post #103
darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

I mean for someone with natural immunity to get the vaccine is not going to reduce their immunity, and might boost it (or might not). So with fairly little downside, it makes sense to vaccinate them surely?

I still think everybody should be vaccinated as far as it is possible, BUT it seems that what you said might not be true. The second vaccine dose can make your natural type immunity weaker.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#107

Post by bigcorp-slave »

darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

It is not a conspiracy to vaccinate more people. The lens you are missing is that the vaccine card is at least somewhat difficult to forge. You can trace the lot number and say, did this person get this dose.

But with previous infection, there is a huge camp of people who are just going to lie about it and continue spreading the virus freely. People have shown that they cannot be trusted to act responsibly.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#108

Post by amalcon »

mioasndo wrote: post #89
amalcon wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we actually believe that "big pharma" (in the form of 3 companies that make US approved vaccines) have greater influence than all of the collective industries that would benefit from a looser mandate (so long as the public trusted it)? Pharma is more influential than the entire service sector , plus most manufacturing, and anything else that functionally requires people to be in the same room? If you believe they…

So you're just going to pretend that the entire media and political establishment (at least in US) as well as many industries (ex. big tech) are not strongly supportive of big pharma when it comes to the vaccines? Are you going to pretend people are not being actively censored, banned, cancelled, fired for being vaccine-sceptical? Do you not believe that the extensively-documented mass manipulation of public opinion…

The media, political establishment (or at least half of it), and other industries are supportive of vaccine mandates. These loose groups of people can indeed influence the public, and are using this ability to promote vaccines. These premises are uncontroversial.

The problem is that some folks are jumping to the conclusion that they are doing this because they want to sacrifice their own interests to increase profits for big pharma. Either this is for an altruistic reason (hah!) or big pharma is actually more powerful than those people (or, maybe, that isn't actually happening).

I know it's comfortable to think that the world's largest economy is entirely under control of three companies, but I see no compelling evidence that this is the case.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#109

Post by peteradio »

nobody9999 wrote: post #92
peteradio wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are COVID cases not population level estimates. Try 40 million x (pick a number between 2 and 5). I won't be bullied into getting an unnecessary procedure just because the burden of proof has not been met (re: spotty studies). > Your statement seems to be along the lines of "Biden won't give me a pony! He's alienating me!" That seems uncalled for.

>I won't be bullied into getting an unnecessary procedure just because the burden of proof has not been met (re: spotty studies). Bullied? Where I live (NYC), they will pay you $100[0] to get vaccinated. I wish more folks would "bully" me that way. I'd add, that at least in the US, no one is forcing anyone to have an unwanted procedure. Every single "vaccine mandate" has come with the caveat that you can avoid being…

Given a 100 bucks if you do, denied admission everywhere and job threatened if you don't.

I did not make the decision to vaccinate against polio, that was made for me. I trust my parents made an educated decision and its beside the point now, I am vaccinated. Does polio vaccine manufacturer have readily available risk/benefit data for people who've already had polio? Covid vaccines don't provide this data so burden of proof is not met. I'd judge polio vaccine the same way under the same circumstances.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#110

Post by Pxtl »

... yeah, this is not going to be a productive comment thread. Sadly, COVID has been so politicized that I tend to say "sit down, shut up, and let the public health people drive". Even if they're wrong, they're close-enough to right to satisfy me and that's better than opening public health up to debate.
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