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Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

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Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#91

Post by Someone1234 »

mioasndo wrote: post #82
Someone1234 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument has holes. - If the vaccine is safe. - If the vaccine is cheaper (directly and logistically). - If tracking the vaccine is easier. Why add the natural immunity workflow? It doesn't make sense. You've just added a bunch of complexity for no stated payoff. Again, this entire argument hinges on the first question being answered "no" or "maybe not." You yourself admit that that is your actual reason: > Furt…

> If the vaccine is safe. Something you don't know. If you want a sincere discussion you might want to at least admit the obvious. > If the vaccine is cheaper (directly and logically). First of all you don't know if it's cheaper. Second, people are free to pay for anything they want regardless of how cheap it is. I'm sure the vast majority of vaccine-sceptical people would readily pay for their own tests. > If tracki…

> First of all you don't know if it's cheaper.

Yes I do. The Antibody Test costs $42 and the vaccine costs $16/dose in the US today.

> Second, people are free to pay for anything they want regardless of how cheap it is.

Nobody was proposing that individuals pay for either one of these. The US Government should pay for it using taxes so that even the poorest citizen has access.

> I'm sure the vast majority of vaccine-sceptical people would readily pay for their own tests.

Letting people self-certify as a public health strategy has been problematic in the past and would be problematic here too.

> I've stated multiple payoffs multiple times already:

But they don't add up. Your "list" boils down to:

- It is unsafe (which is factually inaccurate).

- The vaccine may not add to natural immunity (which as I said, being cheaper and simpler than the alternative testing makes it still worthwhile).

- It is unsafe, and we live in a free society (which is factually inaccurate and irrelevant).

You've made zero arguments for why a cheaper and simpler safe vaccine is inferior to a more expensive and complex antibody test regime. That's because your entire argument hinges on "the vaccine is unsafe" and little else.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#92

Post by nobody9999 »

peteradio wrote: post #86
nobody9999 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As president, he should be looking for every reason to not alienate his own citizens. Through the pandemic, there have been ~40,000,000 COVID cases[0] in the US, and ~120,000,000 people are completely unvaccinated[1]. As such, there are more (perhaps much more) than twice as many folks who have not had COVID who are unvaccinated than there are those who have had COVID. Given that huge disparity, it's not surprising…

Those are COVID cases not population level estimates. Try 40 million x (pick a number between 2 and 5). I won't be bullied into getting an unnecessary procedure just because the burden of proof has not been met (re: spotty studies). > Your statement seems to be along the lines of "Biden won't give me a pony! He's alienating me!" That seems uncalled for.

>I won't be bullied into getting an unnecessary procedure just because the burden of proof has not been met (re: spotty studies).

Bullied? Where I live (NYC), they will pay you $100[0] to get vaccinated. I wish more folks would "bully" me that way.

I'd add, that at least in the US, no one is forcing anyone to have an unwanted procedure. Every single "vaccine mandate" has come with the caveat that you can avoid being vaccinated by getting tested regularly.

As to whether or not a COVID vaccination is necessary or not is, for some strange reason, a controversial question.

Have you been vaccinated against Polio? If so, why is that different than COVID? Not being snarky here, just genuinely curious as to how you see those as different.

[0] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/coronavirus/vaccines/vaccine-incen...

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#93

Post by deelowe »

gojomo wrote: post #63
deelowe wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To what extent has the efficacy of natural immunity been characterized? There should be some minimum bar of understanding that must be met before something becomes a policy even in extreme cases such as these.

There's growing evidence one natural infection is better than any vax for future immunity. One recent report, based on Israeli data: "Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine" https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on... I love vaccines; especially the Pfizer until further research helps lower the Moderna (& Pfizer) doses. If I'd had COVID, I'd want 1 extra dose, perhaps…

> just like other countries got faster immunity, & stronger delta-variant immunity, by delaying 2nds doses

> Our local scientific bureaucracy is killing us & generating unnecessary extra social conflict, with their unscientific inflexibility.

Other countries delayed second doses either due to health and safety concerns or supply constraints while the US pushed forward with EUA before second dose efficacy was fully characterized. To me, this is the opposite of bureaucracy.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#94

Post by dnautics »

andrewnicolalde wrote: post #29
thaufeki wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It depends entirely on an individual immune system detects and combats a particular infection. Pardon my ignorance, but does this mean by contrast that vaccines are designed to induce a uniform response across immune systems? EDIT: A reply (deleted before I could respond) mentioned that immune systems will combat the infection by some "pattern" of it's own design, but a vaccine will encourage the immune system to re…

> Pardon my ignorance, but does this mean by contrast that vaccines are designed to induce a uniform response across immune systems? Also not an expert and curious, would that not be a (the?) design goal of any vaccine?

there is no way for it to be perfectly uniform. Let's just say that the immune system employs several layers of RNG (random shuffling of DNA, and also it shoots mutations at certain segments of DNA) to evolve its responses.

A more uniform response than the pathogen itself? Yes. But I think the actual goal of modern vaccination is not a uniform response, but a directed response. Don't waste your time looking at these parts of the virus, spend it on this (important) part.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#97

Post by frockington1 »

darthvoldemort wrote: post #21

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

Follow the money. Lots of money to be made with each round of shots the population is encouraged to get

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#98

Post by quartesixte »

colpabar wrote: post #72
collegeburner wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, places like NYC are creating a system of getting entry to many places only if you present government authorization. Then they can start adding more conditions to that authorization. Maybe a red state later adds not being a felon or a blue state adds not being on some red flag list. After all, you can still eat, so it's okay. They represent systems for excluding certain classes of people from society.

I'm extremely interested to see whether voting locations will start requiring proof of vaccination.

Someone might have already tried to implement this un-ironically — only a matter of when probably.

That SCOTUS case would be quite interesting to watch.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#99

Post by WillPostForFood »

amalcon wrote: post #79
poorjohnmacafee wrote: post #10

> US CDC estimates that SARS-CoV-2 has infected more than 100 million Americans That's probably why it doesn't count? Would clearly cut into the profit lines of big pharma. If you're extra skeptical, you could also argue Western governments are finding opportunities to accustom their citizens to more top down government intrusions into their lives, e.g. shifting towards a citizen management model that's used today by…

Do we actually believe that "big pharma" (in the form of 3 companies that make US approved vaccines) have greater influence than all of the collective industries that would benefit from a looser mandate (so long as the public trusted it)? Pharma is more influential than the entire service sector , plus most manufacturing, and anything else that functionally requires people to be in the same room? If you believe they…

Do we actually believe that "big pharma" (in the form of 3 companies that make US approved vaccines) have greater influence than all of the collective industries

They only need more influence in key places like FDA and CDC, not more influence overall, to push health policies.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#100

Post by rscho »

timr wrote: post #22
eltondegeneres wrote: post #13

OP keeps posting articles pushing the idea that COVID-19 infection alone is sufficient to protect individuals.

The current data suggests that's true, which is why it counts in other countries, and the US stance is seen as anomalous.

It doesn't count in at least Switzerland, and I believe all through western Europe as well...
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