Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

bmj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 1001 posts

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#61

Post by leifg »

howlong wrote: post #49
leifg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If catching COVID is only a risk to the people catching it I'd agree. However by catching COVID you are also a burden to the health care system and possibly take away a hospital bed for someone who actually needs it (already happening). I do have a problem with that.

A great deal of burden on the health care system -- perhaps even more than completely eliminating COVID -- could be alleviated by people dedicating themselves to better diet and exercise. Why not mandate that?

OK that argument has been debunked a million times but here we go:

1. No one is talking about mandates 2. Yes living unhealthy is a burden on the health care system. But I am fine with that as long as your actions only have consequences in your own life. With an infectious disease that's different because you suddenly have a multiplier. I didn't hear about any ICU capacity issues because of obese people. 3. We (at least most countries) already have measures to increase the overall health of our society (smoking bans in certain places, age limits on alcohol consumptions, programs in schools to provide healthier food in cafeterias, you name it).

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#62

Post by peteradio »

Someone1234 wrote: post #52

The answers aren't medical, they're pragmatic. - COVID-19 Antibody Tests cost more than the vaccine (roughly $40 Vs. $16/dose). - We lack the quantity of Antibody Tests we'd need. - We'd need to set up additional systems and processes to accommodate the testing and proof (which, again, is a cost). The implicit assumption that often go along with these natural immunity proponents is that the vaccine is unsafe. Since i…

I don't believe the science is settled no matter how much the already vaccinated wish to turn the page. What do you have to say that studies of vaccine efficacy and risk conducted by drug companies exclude those with prior immunity. How could the science be settled for a cohort purposefully excluded?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#63

Post by gojomo »

deelowe wrote: post #24
leifg wrote: post #15

The argument seems fine to me. Let people with natural immunity have the same privileges as vaccinated people assuming they have a piece of paper from a federal entity to prove it. The only argument I can think of against it is: Certain vaccine skeptic people might be incentivized to catch the virus on purpose.

To what extent has the efficacy of natural immunity been characterized? There should be some minimum bar of understanding that must be met before something becomes a policy even in extreme cases such as these.

There's growing evidence one natural infection is better than any vax for future immunity. One recent report, based on Israeli data:

"Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine"

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...

I love vaccines; especially the Pfizer until further research helps lower the Moderna (& Pfizer) doses.

If I'd had COVID, I'd want 1 extra dose, perhaps a half a year later, as an extra boost.

But it's unfair – & unscientific – to insist on such doses for the proven-recovered (who are also more likely to have bad vax reactions).

Other countries are doing this better – just like other countries got faster immunity, & stronger delta-variant immunity, by delaying 2nds doses to get more people 1st-dose vaccinated in early 2021.

Our local scientific bureaucracy is killing us & generating unnecessary extra social conflict, with their unscientific inflexibility.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#64

Post by mioasndo »

Someone1234 wrote: post #52

The answers aren't medical, they're pragmatic. - COVID-19 Antibody Tests cost more than the vaccine (roughly $40 Vs. $16/dose). - We lack the quantity of Antibody Tests we'd need. - We'd need to set up additional systems and processes to accommodate the testing and proof (which, again, is a cost). The implicit assumption that often go along with these natural immunity proponents is that the vaccine is unsafe. Since i…

> COVID-19 Antibody Tests cost more than the vaccine (roughly $40 Vs. $16/dose).

That's not a valid reason at all.

> We lack the quantity of Antibody Tests we'd need.

We also lacked vaccine quantity, and many people still do.

> We'd need to set up additional systems and processes to accommodate the testing and proof (which, again, is a cost).

Meh, that's a very weak reason considering it's a small incremental cost to vaccine passports and covid testing.

> The implicit assumption that often go along with these natural immunity proponents is that the vaccine is unsafe.

That's just your 'implicit assumption'.

> Since if the vaccine was safe, the logistical and cost arguments win the day, the only way to make the argument otherwise is to start with the assumption that the vaccine is unsafe and work backwards.

Except vaccine efficacy is much lower than natural immunity and vaccine efficacy wears off over time. We literally have ZERO data on the long-term effects of the mrna vaccines. Plenty of drugs have been found to cause harm 5, 10, 15 years after being approved.

> Therefore, I propose that the argument between natural immunity Vs. vaccine is largely a distraction that people who believe the vaccine to unsafe use to obfuscate their goals.

Your comment here is a distraction. You literally haven't brought up a single fact or data point on vaccine vs natural immunity efficacy.

> Since the data on vaccine safety is a settled issue

How is it a settled issue when there is literally zero data on long-term effects?

> you're really just discussing if the US should waste money on multiple redundant workflows so that vaccine hesitant people can feel better.

Cool story bud.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#65

Post by Someone1234 »

peteradio wrote: post #62
Someone1234 wrote: post #52

The answers aren't medical, they're pragmatic. - COVID-19 Antibody Tests cost more than the vaccine (roughly $40 Vs. $16/dose). - We lack the quantity of Antibody Tests we'd need. - We'd need to set up additional systems and processes to accommodate the testing and proof (which, again, is a cost). The implicit assumption that often go along with these natural immunity proponents is that the vaccine is unsafe. Since i…

I don't believe the science is settled no matter how much the already vaccinated wish to turn the page. What do you have to say that studies of vaccine efficacy and risk conducted by drug companies exclude those with prior immunity. How could the science be settled for a cohort purposefully excluded?

You're asking me about something that I didn't say. Here is what I did say:

> Since the data on vaccine safety is a settled issue

My post was about the logistical and cost problems associated with certifying people with natural immunity, and why that doesn't make sense unless you believe the vaccine is unsafe.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#66

Post by criticaltinker »

nobody9999 wrote: post #57
graeme wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: goddamnit, I see this is being downvoted despite being 100% correct. Yes, infections generate strong immunity. Here is a study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... ————————— It is pretty useful though. Studies have found it compares well with vaccines or better. However like vaccines it also fades. And prior immunity + infection is way better than prior immunity, so being infected no…

>It is pretty useful though. Studies have found it compares well with vaccines or better. My understanding was that there were many more studies of vaccine protection than immunity after infection. Some links to those studies of immunity after infection would be greatly appreciated.

A Systematic Review of the Protective Effect of Prior SARS-CoV-2 Infection on Repeat Infection https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.27.21262741v...

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...

Prior COVID-19 protects against reinfection, even in the absence of detectable antibodies https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(21)002...

SARS-CoV-2 infection rates of antibody-positive compared with antibody-negative health-care workers in England: a large, multicentre, prospective cohort study (SIREN) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33844963/

Risk of Reinfection After Seroconversion to Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2): A Population-based Propensity-score Matched Cohort Study https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid...

Assessment of the Risk of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) Reinfection in an Intense Reexposure Setting https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid...

Assessment of SARS-CoV-2 Reinfection 1 Year After Primary Infection in a Population in Lombardy, Italy https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

SARS-CoV-2 antibody-positivity protects against reinfection for at least seven months with 95% efficacy https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258953702...

Association of SARS-CoV-2 Seropositive Antibody Test With Risk of Future Infection https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

Quantifying the risk of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection over time https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34043841/

Longitudinal observation of antibody responses for 14 months after SARS-CoV-2 infection https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8325385/

Persistence of neutralizing antibodies a year after SARS-CoV-2 infection https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.13.21260426v...

Antibody Responses 8 Months after Asymptomatic or Mild SARS-CoV-2 Infection https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7920668/

Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v...

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#69

Post by peteradio »

RIMR wrote: post #47
eltondegeneres wrote: post #13

OP keeps posting articles pushing the idea that COVID-19 infection alone is sufficient to protect individuals.

Despite having an account since 2018, they have only posted 5 submissions. 4 of them were posted in the past 3 weeks, and all have to do questioning the viability of the vaccines. I know we want to have a space here to freely discuss things without being dismissed, but I also think enough of us have managed enough websites to understand that this account shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm not saying that they are a bo…

I admit that this has me fired up. But that is really the long and short of the explanation. You see "pushing agenda" I see "championing underrepresented not just opinion but facts in the face of government overreach and media blackout".

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#70

Post by orwin »

zwieback wrote: post #17

I'm in favor of vaccine mandates but if there was a better way of quantifying immunity I'd be all in favor of letting people with natural immunity get a waiver. As everything with COVID, the lack of hard data and the poor communication of federal and state agencies has enabled politicians, con men and sectarians to exploit the confusion to their benefit.

There is, actually, antibody test. They are quite costly however.

Im my country, getting infected count as the 1rst dose (yes, i know, natural immunity is better with "real" infections, but rememeber that Covid sometime start an auto-immune disease, it's hard to test for this, so its less costly to just vaccinate people (the jab cost 12E)).

No scientific response. This is mostly pragmatic, and probably politic too. Its easier to just jab everyone you can while you can.

I know it's a bit hearthless, and i can't ask doctors to start triaging, but i'd really like that once everyone have had the possibility to get the double dose, we just stop everything covid related (maybe not the reduced maximum capacity and mask in public transport for the adults during peak hours: those restrictions should have been implemented way before covid).

Post reply on HN