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Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

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Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#51
The one thing missing from the article is the thing the vaccines needed to have prior to approval: rigorous controlled double-blinded studies on infection rates. My guess would be that, to people interested in data-driven epidemiological decisions, this is considered pretty important. What the article provides instead is direct measurement of biological indicators of immune response, which while useful is not remotely the same thing.

This is, however, slightly unfair. You can't ethically have a rigorous controlled double-blinded study on infection rates of people who have already had SARS-CoV-2. This would require infecting some people with SARS-CoV-2, making others incorrectly think they had been infected, and then letting all of them go about their lives post-"recovery". The ethical problems are obvious.

That said, I'd frankly be fine with letting people with (state-)government-verified past COVID cases act as though they have been vaccinated for a period after recovery (not sure what the period should be). It would be one way to get the next best kind of data (an observational study of vaccinated and recovered patients). It would also incentivize people to get tested (so they get that government-verified past case). I'm not sure it's worth building that bureaucracy, but if that compromise were proposed I'd happily accept.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#52
The answers aren't medical, they're pragmatic.

- COVID-19 Antibody Tests cost more than the vaccine (roughly $40 Vs. $16/dose).

- We lack the quantity of Antibody Tests we'd need.

- We'd need to set up additional systems and processes to accommodate the testing and proof (which, again, is a cost).

The implicit assumption that often go along with these natural immunity proponents is that the vaccine is unsafe. Since if the vaccine was safe, the logistical and cost arguments win the day, the only way to make the argument otherwise is to start with the assumption that the vaccine is unsafe and work backwards.

Therefore, I propose that the argument between natural immunity Vs. vaccine is largely a distraction that people who believe the vaccine to unsafe use to obfuscate their goals. Since the data on vaccine safety is a settled issue, you're really just discussing if the US should waste money on multiple redundant workflows so that vaccine hesitant people can feel better.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#53
post #23

It seems much harder to quantify the level of immunity conferred by natural infection. It depends entirely on an individual immune system detects and combats a particular infection. Anecdotally, I know someone who has been infected twice. Refuses to get vaccinated now because "why bother? I have great immunity now." With no sense of irony, given that he's already been infected twice...

>Anecdotally, I know someone who has been infected twice How does he know he was infected twice? Saying that a PCR test returned positive values two times isn't a great answer - since by its nature PCR is only counting the existence (above the programmed threshold post amplification). Serology is the only way to know for certain you were/are infected. This highlights one of the bigger issues we have: PCR test are a v…

PCR. About 9 months apart.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#55

A recent study from Israel said that natural immunity is an order of magnitude better than vaccine-induced immunity against delta variant. I don't know who to believe, but if that's the case, then the narrative of "well they should get vaccinated anyway" is really freaking suspicious. We need deeper research on this, and the fact that they haven't researched this is truly scary.

Do take an antibody test and decide for yourself. How can one make decisions without any metric?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#57
post #30

OP keeps posting articles pushing the idea that COVID-19 infection alone is sufficient to protect individuals.

Edit: goddamnit, I see this is being downvoted despite being 100% correct. Yes, infections generate strong immunity. Here is a study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... ————————— It is pretty useful though. Studies have found it compares well with vaccines or better. However like vaccines it also fades. And prior immunity + infection is way better than prior immunity, so being infected no…

>It is pretty useful though. Studies have found it compares well with vaccines or better.

My understanding was that there were many more studies of vaccine protection than immunity after infection.

Some links to those studies of immunity after infection would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#58
post #46
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeking infection may cure their skepticism faster than any amount of scolding!

If catching COVID is only a risk to the people catching it I'd agree. However by catching COVID you are also a burden to the health care system and possibly take away a hospital bed for someone who actually needs it (already happening). I do have a problem with that.

Theoretically, and in places of transient surges, sure. But most of US isn't currently at that level of health-care rationing.

You know who else puts others at risk? Vaccinated people, overconfident, potentially walking around with their asymptomatic breakthrough infections (whereas an unvaxed person with a rougher case would self-isolate). But we live with that, because people can still protect themselves with vaccination, & by choosing to only come within infection-range of other vaxed people.

It's looking increasingly likelt that natural immunity is stronger against future variants, or stronger against transmission (mucosal immunity in nose/airways instead of in bloodstream), than vaccination alone. So when a young healthy person who's unlikely to land in an ICU gets & recovers from a natural infection, they might be net-lowering their community's risks, over the long run, versus mere vax-immunity. These population-level effects are often weird & non-linear that way.

I'd say, to the maximum extent possible: let their immune systems, and their peers, & their communities, learn in the way they choose. Some lessons are necessarily painful. Those with greater concern should keep their distance in the meantime – but realize the fastest & surest way to broad safety, via deeper herd immunity, is to let the laggards work through their hard lessons ASAP.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#59
The question in the title is very very easy to answer.

The political reason that natural immunity “doesn’t count” indeed is not directly about medical reality.

To say things are political is almost an insult these days—I don’t mean it that way at all. But policy has medical implications, and so politics is part of it. This policy-decision is being made because there have been political movements since early on to do variations on “Let 'er rip,” that is, to allow COVID-19 to run rampant until a herd immunity develops, while maybe implementing decontamination procedures in nursing homes instead or so. The most notable statement to this effect was the Great Barrington Declaration but of course there have been smaller ones that hit wider spread.

Policy needs to factor in things like the huge early oppositions to shutdowns, the huge oppositions to masking despite it being absurdly effective for how cheap it is... there remain very strong political forces in this divided country which overlook the significance of younger people with COVID flooding the emergency rooms and overtaxing our limited health workers (NYT today reports that in the US South, they are at this level right now), and the death that can come from this, simply because the danger for young people is usually considerably smaller when those hospitals are operating normally. (See India for a cautionary tale, there.)

Given this political reality, ‘vaccinate everyone’ is a political countermeasure meant to create a potential-energy-barrier to lying. It’s not medical advice, it’s public policy. Lying to say ‘Yeah I was COVID-exposed but it wasn’t bad enough to go to the hospital’ is very very cheap. Forging a CDC vaccination card takes a couple hours of time right now and opens you up to some fraud risks—it’s not a huge cost but if it’s higher than the cost of just going and getting vaccinated, there is a hope that vaccination will win out.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#60

Why is this post flagged? And why is the vouch button unavailable?

The mods are surprisingly responsive on this site, so I say this without a hint of sarcasm - try emailing them about it. I recently had a thread unflagged within an hour.
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