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AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

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221–230 of 357 posts

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#221

Please forgive me for asking a controversial question (particularly so early in the morning), but if there are all of these biological correlations with race, what does it mean that “race is a social construct”? Is the idea that black people have greater bone mineral density (per TFA) due to social or environmental causes (e.g., diet)? For what it’s worth, I’m a staunch egalitarian and I don’t see that changing eithe…

As someone pointed out in another reply, "races" are buckets people are distributed into, frequently based on physical aspects. The point of saying "race is a social construct" is the nature of those buckets. Northern Europeans, Southern Europeans, and Eastern Europeans (or rather people descending from those areas) differ in a number of physical aspects. Are they different races? For those who think race matters tod…

Or by haplogroups.

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I've think you've gotten looped around here to a stance that fails to account for the original context. It wouldn't be that surprising if an AI could categorize people into "tall" vs "short" from pixelated medical images; certainly nobody would say, as the parent comment did, that the AI must be cheating because there's no such thing as being biologically tall.

But no one would argue that the definitions of "tall" and "short" weren't social constructs, even as the fact of human length from heel to crown clearly is not a social construct.

[deleted]

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#223
Any clustering similarity scheme for biometric data would yield similarity categories that we may or may not name "races" though.

We could probably do the same with text analysis, where the emergent distinct flavours would create categories. A previous HN story that did specifically this (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27568709) could have just as easily been called "tribes."

The bigger question is whether the categories provide heuristics with valuable predictive illumination. "Valuable," being the key term to solve for.

Ethnicity information in medicine may be a fast heuristic for testing for things like melanoma and diabetes, but even that this fast sorting rule might provide a time/steps shortcut or intuitive leap to test for a diagnosis is likely really more an artifact of the cost of testing and examination than the result of a physical/biological determinant.

I'd conjecture that a world with tricorders where the cost of scanning for disease is equal and controlled, would likely yield results that were less-ethnically correlated - and then edge cases that were exclusively ethnically correlated, e.g. over a very polarized distribution. There's also the question of whether the tricorder measures complete things, and who decides.

This is to say, there are differences and combinations that may aggregate into categories, but the meaning of the differences is dynamic, subjective, and a function of what level of abstraction you are looking at them from. E.g. at the level of a statement like "most foo people are bar," you've already cancelled out most of the information about your sample, so the coherence of something that low-information is going to be limted as well.

In this sense, the "social construct," description is a response to these noisy dynamics, and it's consistent to a point. In this view, race is only ever a determinant when we let it be, as the result of chosen and learned interpretations of these cognitive grouping dynamics. When the cost of errors is low, we can afford to unlearn these abstractions. Modernity and civilization implies the cost is low.

Taking that further, when the real cost of errors is high enough, you get a reinfocement effect on the bias where the surviving population is made up mainly of people who exercised that fast heuristic (hence long-lived homogenous populations), because the tolerant ones evoltionarily select out as a result of that high error cost.

I could even extend this further to define racists today as people who percieve a high cost to being wrong in their generalizations, which correlates well with being poor, but also, very rich, just less so in the middle between. Anti-racism becomes a kind of signal that shows you can afford to be wrong, and oddly, racism in this model is intended to signal you have a lot to lose. If you want to reduce racism, solve for the security issues for people who percieve a high cost to being wrong about openness. If you want more racism, just antagonize people who percieve that they have a lot to lose. I'd wonder how well that generalizes.

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point. "Race" is an attempt to put people with different biological traits into 'buckets' but in reality there's variation, overlap, and blurry lines that make any sort of classification a social approximation at best. No one is going to argue that you get your traits from your ancestors and that regional groups have similar traits due to shared ancestry, it's the classification itself that…

I agree, but is it accurate to say that our concept of race amounts to labeling different clusters in an N-dimensional space (where the dimensions are largely biological traits)? I.e., while labeling clusters always entails some amount of approximation (clusters are inherently nebulous), we still label clusters because it's useful. For example, the boundaries between languages are imprecise, but we still bin/label th…

So which "race" is the child mentioned above, German or Irish? Sure, they have aspects of both, but they can be in only one cluster.

The utility of clusters is nebulous, too.

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But with the taller/shorter, you would commonly have two tallers producing a shorter, or two shorters producing a taller. If we were talking about husbandry, we would say that tallers and shorters don't "breed true". But with race, you never have two white people produce a black person, or vice versa (and no, a black person with albinism is not a white person).

The heritibility of human height is 79% ( https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01157-y ). The heritibility of human skin color is 82% ( https://www.nature.com/articles/emm201228 ).

That's relative lightness/darkness of skin pigmentation of the butt of Mongol people. Of course there is variation even among races, even among family members of the same race in skin tone.

Which do you think is more common, based on your quoted stats?

a) To see white parents who have a genetic child who has black skin, or black parents who have a genetic child who has white skin (disregarding albinism)

or

b) two tall parents have a genetic child who is short as an adult, or two short parents to have a genetic child who is tall as an adult

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#226
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, the definition of a social construct is a bit nuanced, and it's possible to both believe race is a social construct and that it correlates with things. As a metaphor, let's say we create two categories in the world for all people - tallers (people above six feet in height) and shorters (people below six feet in height). Human height objectively exists, but these categories are social construct…

Thanks for the great explanation. The height analogy made it click for me.

Also, passing would work for height. Suppose you're 5'11 but your friends are around 6'1 and you were close friends in kindergarten (when you were all shorter of course). You begin wearing platforms that add about an inch to your height. You hang out with other tallers and so people just assume that's what you are, they likely don't insist on measuring you in bare feet at every opportunity. Laws affecting this social construction of "tallers" have much less impact on you than might seem to be the case looking at a medical chart. You would be said to "pass" for a taller.

Passing was (and to a lesser extent remains) crucial in the US and many places where variations in appearance were crucial to racial assumptions. If you look white and you act white then, most of the time to a first approximation you are white. But of course this opportunity is much more open to a relatively pale-skinned person than to a dark-skinned poor person which is a further problem on top of the problem that now people are lying about who they are.

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, the definition of a social construct is a bit nuanced, and it's possible to both believe race is a social construct and that it correlates with things. As a metaphor, let's say we create two categories in the world for all people - tallers (people above six feet in height) and shorters (people below six feet in height). Human height objectively exists, but these categories are social construct…

But with the taller/shorter, you would commonly have two tallers producing a shorter, or two shorters producing a taller. If we were talking about husbandry, we would say that tallers and shorters don't "breed true". But with race, you never have two white people produce a black person, or vice versa (and no, a black person with albinism is not a white person).

"never" is too strong here. Two black people occasionally produce a white baby without albinism. There's a lot of genes that code skin color and you can have a bunch of recessive "white skin" genes and still be very black-skinned yourself. Then sometimes your child gets all the recessive white-skin genes from both parents.

I had a personal friend who was white with two black parents, not albino, and genetic tests proved paternity.

However, can I ask what the point of your hypothetical is? I'm not sure what message or conclusion I'm supposed to get from it, in context of the discussion.

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The heritibility of human height is 79% ( https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01157-y ). The heritibility of human skin color is 82% ( https://www.nature.com/articles/emm201228 ).

That's relative lightness/darkness of skin pigmentation of the butt of Mongol people. Of course there is variation even among races, even among family members of the same race in skin tone. Which do you think is more common , based on your quoted stats? a) To see white parents who have a genetic child who has black skin, or black parents who have a genetic child who has white skin (disregarding albinism) or b) two ta…

Whats the point?

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second sentence of the Wikipedia article for “species” reads: > A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms in which any two individuals of the appropriate sexes or mating types can produce fertile offspring, typically by sexual reproduction. This is the definition I’ve always heard, and it’s certainly more rigorous than any definition of “race” that I’ve encountered, and makes no reference to an…

> This is the definition I’ve always heard It's not as precise as you think, because fertility isn't transitive. Consider members of a species, M1, M2, F1, F2. M1 might be fertile with F1, M2 with F2, but M1 may not be fertile with F2. Are they all really members of the same species? Read up on the species problem for more information (there are now 26, not 24): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_concept

IIRC, there are two species of birds, A and B, in the North Atlantic that cannot interbreed. But A can breed with C which has a range to the east, and C can breed with D again further east. And so on, around the arctic circle, until you get to Q which can breed with B.

Re: AI Recognises Race in Medical Images

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's relative lightness/darkness of skin pigmentation of the butt of Mongol people. Of course there is variation even among races, even among family members of the same race in skin tone. Which do you think is more common , based on your quoted stats? a) To see white parents who have a genetic child who has black skin, or black parents who have a genetic child who has white skin (disregarding albinism) or b) two ta…

Whats the point?

The point is showing that the heritability of skin tone and height are about the same is meaningless when talking about skin tone differences among races.

Literally, news articles are written and go viral about "black couple has white baby", whereas there has never been an article "Two 6'3" people have an adult child who is only 5'5""

If you had a series of 100,000 parents+genetic children paraded in front of you, do you think it would be more common to see two parents who are both rather taller or both rather shorter than their child, or would it be more common to see two parents who are appear to be of one race, but their child appears to be of a different race?

If your answer isn't "I'd expect those things to happen at about the same rate", then you should question what exactly the sources are saying for the person who posted about the heritability of height vs skin tone.

The feeling I get is that many people really, really don't want race to be real. Because it if it isn't real, then you can't say there are differences among the races. So, they will argue against common sense and try to say things like height is just as heritable as skin tone as a rebuttal to the fact that pretty much always, two white parents don't give birth to black babies, and two black parents don't give birth to white babies.

I see the same kind of mental logic at play with LGBT-supporters, where there is a strong insistence that being gay is genetic, and not a choice. That way, you can't chalk it up to lifestyle choices that you can just change. Personally, I don't really see why it matters whether being gay is genetic or a choice, because there is literally nothing wrong with being gay, whether you are born that way or whether you "just" choose to be that way.

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