Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#471

Post by Lev1a » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

Lev1a wrote: post #319

CaptainZapp wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Switzerland and Germany there's a difference between an AG (Aktiengesellschaft) and a GmbH (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung). Both have more or less the same tax and structural advantage (like limited liability, a far easier time to get acknowledged by social security, etc) The main difference is capital requirements and more formality for the AG. For example: The law requires yearly external audits for an A…

> It could be different in Germany. Nice overview(s) for Germany and most other countries with comparisons where appropriate. Regarding the AG in Germany and required regular external auditing, in my university course where I learned about the charasteristics of the most common German legal entities [0], there was no such requirement listed or talked about, maybe that's only for Switzerland? The GmbH on the other han…

> Nice overview(s) for Germany and most other countries with comparisons where appropriate.

Forgot to insert the following link after the above sentence and can't edit anymore:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legal_entity_types_by_...

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#472

Post by TuringNYC » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 1:24 AM UTC

Closi wrote: post #469

TuringNYC wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the problem is the market, for some markets. The new law would not affect NYC or dense urban areas because there is lots of order liquidity there. But what about rural Pennsylvania? (Ask me how I know? Hint: management consulting air dropped to remote client location) When i'm in rural areas, there are often no taxis and one will show up an hour after you call, maybe. Without order liquidity, it is in…

> I cannot imagine Uber will sponsor idle wages in rural regions where you get an order or two a day. If Uber can't operate while paying minimum wage then maybe they shouldn't be operating. Every other company has to work out how to pay minimum wage. An unprofitable rural convenience store doesn't get to pay its clerks less because the sales aren't high enough, so I fail to see why it should be different for Uber and…

I mostly agree with you -- but a more apt analogy would be if clerks could work from home and had the option of choosing their shifts in 20-30 minute slots and they could continue watching TV at home (or whatever) if they werent called...so basically a babysitter might be a better example. Should babysitters be paid for 40hr weeks just in case we need one in the middle of the week for 2hrs?

To be fair, an appropriate Uber setup here would also require that drivers know the destination beforehand and get compensated if the ride is cancelled and have the ability to decline rides.

The problem for both babysitters and uber drivers in low-usage areas is that there is NO economic model that allows for 40hr workweeks once population (or usage) declines sufficiently. All these gig models work very well in the city but totally break down as you go to rare use areas. A new model is required -- i'm not saying Uber is it, but Uber is closest.

Anyone who isnt in an urban environment, or who's landed at an airport at 2am knows this is a problem. We just need a way to fairly compensate people to solve it.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#473

Post by ChicagoDave » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 1:43 AM UTC

richwater wrote: post #467

aqsalose wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now if people are worried about employment practices, why not look at Walmart, Amazon, Target, and most retail stores. They intentionally staff people with erratic weekly hours, keeping shifts to 4 hours (no breaks or lunches required) and no one reaches 35 hours to enforce benefits. Is there Target in the Netherlands?

> They intentionally staff people with erratic weekly hours, keeping shifts to 4 hours I literally have family members who work full shifts. You're taking anecdotal examples and extrapolating that to the entire retail force. dumb opinion.

My ex-wife has worked in retail at all levels for 40 years. District managers intentionally force schedules to be broken up so breaks and lunches, outside of managers, are never needed. They intentionally over-hire to make sure they pay the absolute least amount. The average weekly schedule is 30-31 hours and those are broken up into 4 to 6 hour chunks. You may get a break if you're lucky. You may get a lunch if you're on for 8 hours. But the clear direction of the industry is to limit each worker to the least amount of hours, eliminate non-working time, and make sure benefits and overtime are never paid.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#474

Post by ClumsyPilot » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 1:53 AM UTC

bko wrote: post #448

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Of course they're entrepreneurs. They have to own or finance a car." When we were taught business in school, it was about setting the price, hiring staff, choosing a target market. You know, thigs that make a business a business. I am willing to bet my house that there isn't a single business or economics testbook where maintaining a car is even a consideration.

> When we were taught business in school, it was about setting the price, hiring staff, choosing a target market. You know, thigs that make a business a business. You have a very narrow understanding of business and entrepreneurship. Not all businesses have employees. Every business book will tell you almost all businesses are price takers, not price setters. You can't wave a wand and say "I want to charge X". The ta…

"You can't wave a wand and say "I want to charge X"

Of course you can! Whether anyone pays is another matter.

"The target market could be Uber"

1 company is a customer, not a market. You are perverting the term to the point where it looses all meaning. It's like Agile - everything is agile now.

"Maintaining equipment and accounting for depreciation is very important"

So is a regular exercise routine, but neither of them defines a business. Are half the country are 'entrepreneurs' now because they have to drive kids to school? This is absurd!

You don't like my criteria, fine, but the only criteria you put forward aren't even relevant to lawyers, accountant and hundreds of other kinds of Real businesses that do have employees, set the price, run their marketing, etc.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#475

Post by ClumsyPilot » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 2:03 AM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #450

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"All those things should actually be under the purview of the government, rather than businesses." How does this make sence - are we meant to move you on government payroll for the 1 week you have the flu and can't work? Should the government pay for your annual leave?

Sort of, although the most efficient and effective implementation in my opinion would basically result in a universal basic income.

Even with a real UBI system, having random fluctuations in earnings when you get a cold or break a leg is not reasonable.

Additionally, this idea will incentivise employers to destroy human capital - like an employer could drive their employees to burnout and then discard them because they bear no consequences.

This is already happening to a large extent thanks to gig economy- Uk employers have cut their investments in staff training by 2.4 billion since 2011.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#476

Post by 8eye » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

lhorie wrote: post #443

joshuahaglund wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you have another source of income. If you were in the middle of a good chapter you could turn down a ride. I don't think you're exactly the kind of driver these companies are looking for, but if they were I think they'd have a hard time finding enough of you. I feel like being able to monetize your freetime is a luxury a society can't afford when your leisure activity could be someone's job. You could…

> It sounds like you have another source of income. [...] I don't think you're exactly the kind of driver these companies are looking for Uber/Lyft have said on various occasions that the majority of drivers are part-timer/casual. While being able to read books between trips might seem a bit of a privileged situation, many who do Uber for supplemental income don't have room to engage in luxury. I personally know of s…

what i liked about the gig economy was having the freedom to get what i had to get done without being micromanaged. there is a large portion of gig workers who don’t want to be a standard worker because it cuts into that freedom. so i can see both sides of the argument but for me delivering food was a lot better than waiting tables. way too much stress serving and having management try to control you at every step in the day. so hoping this new trend doesn’t undermine something special about gig work. it was my main source of income while in college and it was perfect for that. i could sign in, make money and then go back home and work on what i had to get done, real jobs often are not flexible and kinda hold you back in life because you have less time to better yourself due yo requirements with work hours etc

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#477

Post by tekknik » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 2:39 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #426

Closi wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But please no hourly pay. You might be willing to work for less than minimum wage, but in reality minimum wages exist because without them they create a race-to-the-bottom for workers, and it's very hard to write a policy that's something like "you can pay a person less if they are enjoying it and are reading a book and not really doing that much". Waiting time is a regular part of jobs and we pay for it in other c…

This is basically the line of reasoning that changed my opinion on this issue. Previously I thought, well it's up to people when they want to work and how much for. The problem with that is these services are only viable because there is a core of drivers that work long hours and have this as their primary source of income. Part time casual drivers are also an important part of what makes services like this effective…

So then what happens is these drivers move onto other employment, which then increases the rate they pay, which then attracts people back.

This is also gig work, the person that made a full time job from gig work didn’t understand what gig work is in the first place.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#478

Post by CaptainZapp » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 4:32 AM UTC

belter wrote: post #227

CaptainZapp wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Switzerland and Germany there's a difference between an AG (Aktiengesellschaft) and a GmbH (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung). Both have more or less the same tax and structural advantage (like limited liability, a far easier time to get acknowledged by social security, etc) The main difference is capital requirements and more formality for the AG. For example: The law requires yearly external audits for an A…

In the Netherlands you have essentially: Private limited company (BV or besloten vennootschap) or Public limited company (NV or naamloze vennootschap) The BV is like a Ltd in the Anglo Saxon world and the NV is your company with equity defined by shares/stocks. you can also have: Cooperative (coöperatie) Association (vereniging) Foundation (stichting)

Thank you.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#479

Post by Closi » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 6:08 AM UTC

TuringNYC wrote: post #472

Closi wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot imagine Uber will sponsor idle wages in rural regions where you get an order or two a day. If Uber can't operate while paying minimum wage then maybe they shouldn't be operating. Every other company has to work out how to pay minimum wage. An unprofitable rural convenience store doesn't get to pay its clerks less because the sales aren't high enough, so I fail to see why it should be different for Uber and…

I mostly agree with you -- but a more apt analogy would be if clerks could work from home and had the option of choosing their shifts in 20-30 minute slots and they could continue watching TV at home (or whatever) if they werent called...so basically a babysitter might be a better example. Should babysitters be paid for 40hr weeks just in case we need one in the middle of the week for 2hrs? To be fair, an appropriate…

I mostly agree with you too - however I think there is a subtle difference between an employee explicitly wanting to work these incredibly short shifts, and an employer mandating it.

I.e in your example, where someone wants to work in 30 minute increments and that is the staff member's choice and the employer is happy, then fine.

However it would be unreasonable for an employer to say to a staff member "I'm only going to pay you in 30 minute increments, and after each 30 minutes you can go watch TV, but if a customer arrives when you are on break I want you to run back to work straight away to staff the till, and I'm not going to pay you for the time watching TV".

It's reasonable to ask the Babysitter to work part-time and have fairly short shifts. An example of being unreasonable would be to say that they have to take calls during the day with customers and they will only be paid the minutes talking to customers. It's worth saying the laws here change if you are an employee vs sole-trader, and most babysitters would not be classed as an employee while Uber drivers are.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#480

Post by randomswede » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 6:08 AM UTC

TuringNYC wrote: post #472

Closi wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot imagine Uber will sponsor idle wages in rural regions where you get an order or two a day. If Uber can't operate while paying minimum wage then maybe they shouldn't be operating. Every other company has to work out how to pay minimum wage. An unprofitable rural convenience store doesn't get to pay its clerks less because the sales aren't high enough, so I fail to see why it should be different for Uber and…

I mostly agree with you -- but a more apt analogy would be if clerks could work from home and had the option of choosing their shifts in 20-30 minute slots and they could continue watching TV at home (or whatever) if they werent called...so basically a babysitter might be a better example. Should babysitters be paid for 40hr weeks just in case we need one in the middle of the week for 2hrs? To be fair, an appropriate…

If the babysitter is an employee of a babysitting bureau, sure. If they're an independent contractor, negotiating babysitting contracts on their own, no (well, strictly speaking, they are at that point their own boss and can decide if they want to pay themselves for downtime or not).

For any situation in-between, the answer probably ends somewhere on the spectrum between "yes" and "no".