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Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

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341–350 of 500 posts

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#341
post #22

It was never for the drivers. It certainly isn't a win for the customer. It is only a win for the state to collect their taxes.

Everything is a win for the state, can't remember the last time anything happened in the employment law space that has been good for everybody...

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drive Uber for a few months. I hate the idea of "hourly minimums". Maybe we can have that for full time drivers. But, I would go out on "unprofitable times" (when my hourly pay was substantially less than minimum wage due to a lack of rides) and read books (that I would have read anyway). Doing this I made small amounts of money while doing a leisure activity. I loved the ability to drive less than full time in exc…

They can employ drivers and still give them the freedom to accept or decline tides as they wish.

I think the conundrum is that either Uber pays for downtime (employee model) or it doesn't (contractor model). It's literally impossible to be actively driving passengers for a solid 40 hours a week while maintaining reasonable work hours. For the model that pays for downtime, it needs to make it up somehow since it wouldn't be able to afford people just sitting around doing nothing in the middle of nowhere. Typically, this is accomplished by mandating employees to be "clocked in", unable to refuse rides, and chasing some sort of quota. I'd be curious to hear about different options.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that it didn't used to be a law. Why can't the government enforce it's own social program and let businesses focus on their primary goal instead of healthcare compliance.

The government does enforce its own social programs. It's found the most efficient/popular way to do that is through businesses.

That greatly overstates the intentionality and search for efficiency involved in how we got this mismash of health care coverage.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#344
post #208

Great to see that over 100 years of labour laws won by the workers' movements can't be innovated away in SOME countries.

But does every single way to make money have to provide a living wage with full health benefits, etc.? Seems like you limit types of innovation that could otherwise happen. For example, say you create some kind of trash cleanup/recycling incentive app that pays out some small amount for trash/recyclables picked up and turned in. Soon: everyone is outraged that some poor person can't make a living wage picking up recy…

This already exists but without an app. Anyone can collect scrap and sell it to a recycling center. Plenty of homeless people use this as a primary income source. No one has ever tried to classify it as employment.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#345
It's interesting to me that, generally speaking, both Uber and it's drivers are fine with the way things are, entering into a mutually agreed upon contract...

Only to have people who have no skin in the game tell them both what they have to do... because it's 'the right thing'.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#346
post #208

Great to see that over 100 years of labour laws won by the workers' movements can't be innovated away in SOME countries.

But does every single way to make money have to provide a living wage with full health benefits, etc.? Seems like you limit types of innovation that could otherwise happen. For example, say you create some kind of trash cleanup/recycling incentive app that pays out some small amount for trash/recyclables picked up and turned in. Soon: everyone is outraged that some poor person can't make a living wage picking up recy…

Can't compare that app to Uber, Uber hasn't innovated much of anything besides a tracking app with a payment integration. Lift forked their product in no time. They have undercut the competition, skirted laws, pay horrible wages, promised a self driving fleet , this is the funniest to me. I bet they want that released without too much regulatory friction too. There was this incident where their fsd fleet car run over 6 red lights consecutively.

The break it ask for forgiveness later approach is generally not welcome in Europe, it's regarded as borderline criminal practice. And then delay court procedures and are the other slimy practices.

Always easier to make a buck when breaking the law when everyone else is not breaking it. These companies have compliance departments and lawyers not to see what's legal, but to see how much they can get away with. Today, a Dutch Judge showed them the demarcation lines.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drive Uber for a few months. I hate the idea of "hourly minimums". Maybe we can have that for full time drivers. But, I would go out on "unprofitable times" (when my hourly pay was substantially less than minimum wage due to a lack of rides) and read books (that I would have read anyway). Doing this I made small amounts of money while doing a leisure activity. I loved the ability to drive less than full time in exc…

They can employ drivers and still give them the freedom to accept or decline tides as they wish.

Yes, that would be technically possible. But it will not happen because of how the incentives are set up. If Uber now has to bear the cost of being an employer, it will need to exercise its power over the employee drivers and force them to work.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#348
post #61

What we have here is a unique, unprecedented, real life experiment in Game Theory. Possible outcomes: - Uber could pull out from the Netherlands - Drivers in the Netherlands could organize themselves, but they will need a structure similar to Uber - Other countries will follow the Netherlands ruling We could see the implosion of the gig economy (doubt it) or - most probably - some places like the Netherlands will be…

When the city of Austin, TX added some minor regulations around ride share companies, Uber and Lyft left the city. About 24 hours later, ten new services started up. Shortly after that, Uber and Lyft came back.

But the quick startup time / ability for small startups to compete was likely due to being able to hire contractors vs "employing" the drivers.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#349
post #80

> "We know that the vast majority of drivers would like to remain independent," said Maurits Schonfeld, general manager of Uber in Northern Europe That's funny, because the court's reasoning was that drivers in their daily work are almost completely dependent on Uber, which calls all the shots.

I feel this is very disingenuous on Uber's part. Either it's just their way of distracting from the actual point, or they really don't understand what is happening. The case wasn't about what driver's prefer, but about the reality of driving for Uber. What small bit of independence drivers had in setting their own hours is not necessarily eroded by this ruling. It just means Uber will have to (gasp!) innovate to deal…

Yes, also it is to be expected that Uber has a large number of drivers that only do a couple of riders per week while a smaller number of drivers work full time. The larger number of drivers that only do a few rides of course would be in favor of flexibility, but this ruling is as far as I understand mainly about protecting those who work for Uber full time.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree uber drivers =/= black cab drivers, but I'd also argue that most people don't want or need a black cab driver today. What extra services does a black cab driver provide over an Uber driver in London? - Better knowledge of traffic patterns? - Ability to recommend places, give you local knowledge That's all I can really think of. I agree that local knowledge is sometimes useful, but the vast majority of the tim…

It's all about the subtle nuance of the service provided. A skilled driver will know which route to take if the passenger wants the absolute quickest route, or if the passenger wants a scenic route, or which cobble-stone roads to avoid if the passenger says they're feeling a bit ill, or hundreds of other such intricacies and peculiarities which come with offering expert service which someone who just has a GPS app on…

That's nice. They should continue to offer this premium service at premium prices, then, for the few people who are willing to pay the premium.
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