Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#361

Post by lazide » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #24

lazide wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethanol also sucks in water from the atmosphere which causes big problems if not adequately managed. Especially ‘back in the day’, the technology to do so was very poor - even keeping a gas tank somewhat sealed against rain was difficult and often didn’t happen well. Modern plastics, better valves, better treatment chemicals all mean it’s less of a problem now - but it is still a major problem and kills a lot of smal…

We did have the tech in the 1960s to make gas tanks that were sealed against the rain, actually. While yes ethanol is hygroscopic, 10% ethanol won't cause issues even in old vehicles (see people with old motorcycles) unless you keep it in for a long time without use.

Against the rain is not sufficient - it has to be sealed against atmospheric moisture at higher concentrations. 10% ethanol isn’t terrible at this - but the discussion was running on ethanol vs gas right?

If running ‘pure’ ethanol, it’s still really hard to not have engines die or fuel handling not contaminate it. It’s not an easy thing to keep pure enough, and is even a bit corrosive compared to gasoline.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#362

Post by datavirtue » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

capeterson wrote: post #325

colordrops wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Factory farms, polyunsaturated fats, refined grains (white wheat and rice), HFCS, human driven cars, and sitting desks will all be seen as barbaric or grossly unhealthy in the future.

Throughout the last year or so, I've seen multiple people on HN call out polyunsaturated fats, is there a specific reason for that? Google hasn't really turned up anything for me that looked particularly compelling.

Soybean oil is one prominent and very prolific and profitable example. It is everywhere. It was first developed to add to feed to fatten animals (turkeys). You can still buy it in fifty gallon drums at feed mills. Nasty stuff. It breaks down and oxidizes readily under heat (and in the body). Oxidation == free radicals. Hydrogenation (hydrogen injection) makes it thick at room temperature, otherwise it is a thin oil like any other vegetable oil you might be familiar with.

Very fattening, no nutrient value. Unless a restaurant is willing to invest in peanut oil (and they will tell you on the menu if they did because it costs so much more than hydrogenated soybean oil) all fried foods are cooked in burnt up (oxidized and broken down) soybean oil. You have to c he ange the oil in a fryer every day to get a decent food product out of it. Good restaurants might filter it and reuse it for one additional shift/day. In reality it is used until it is smoking heavily and not able to cook food without rendering it deflated and dark brown.

There are massive inertia and industry lobbyists (producers and food mfg) behind it that know how to install fear in politicians. We have know for along time that putting it in your body is a bad idea.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#363

Post by datavirtue » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

Iv wrote: post #318

afavour wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? Maybe an overwrought comparison but I genuinely do feel like we’ll look back on this age of social media and disinformation in the same way we did leaded gas. The people making money knew exactly how dangerous it was and the problems it caused but they did everything in their power to cover it up in the name of profit. Originally it felt like a social annoyance a…

My bet is advertisement. We know it is detrimental to informed decision, to market efficiency and to mental health. This is just an opinion that can't be relayed on any outlet that depends on advertisement (90% of them maybe?)

Advertisement is great if all claims are required to be 100% true and provable.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#364

Post by sudosysgen » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #361

sudosysgen wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did have the tech in the 1960s to make gas tanks that were sealed against the rain, actually. While yes ethanol is hygroscopic, 10% ethanol won't cause issues even in old vehicles (see people with old motorcycles) unless you keep it in for a long time without use.

Against the rain is not sufficient - it has to be sealed against atmospheric moisture at higher concentrations. 10% ethanol isn’t terrible at this - but the discussion was running on ethanol vs gas right? If running ‘pure’ ethanol, it’s still really hard to not have engines die or fuel handling not contaminate it. It’s not an easy thing to keep pure enough, and is even a bit corrosive compared to gasoline.

No, the discussion isn't about ethanol vs gas. It's about adding some ethanol to gas in order to reduce knocking. That means 10-15% ethanol.

I agree that 100% ethanol would require hermetic seals, but this is about ethanol as an additive.

GM were considering using ethanol as an additive, not 100% ethanol fuel. That would require massively changing up the engine anyways and wouldn't be compatible with straight gas.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#365

Post by wpietri » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

ByteJockey wrote: post #303

wpietri wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but that comes later. All serious discussions about rights involve balancing the practical consequences of different rights. But the two concepts of freedom are still quite distinct.

I don't think it does come later. I don't think there is anyone who actually thinks of these things in terms of "regardless of the harm it causes others". Ok, this being the internet, we can probably find one, but I don't think there's any significant portion of the population. That position is basically a strawman. I do think, however, that there's people who draw the lines in very different places, or put different…

I don't think they talk about it in those terms. But that is absolutely the behavior.

A clear historical example is America's conflict around slavery. The primary southern justification for creating the Confederacy was freedom. That continued after the Civil War; see the UDC catechisms for example. "States' rights" they'll shout, meaning the right of the white people in power to treat black people like livestock and keeping that in that condition through systematic violent abuse. And you'll still find people today arguing the point.

A modern example is public health. Everything from preventing toxic waste dumping to COVID mask mandates is met with cries of "FREEDOM!" Right now there is a large constituency in the US for the right to do whatever they please even if that means they will kill people by giving them a disease.

I agree that what constitutes "harm" can be a tricky question for some issues. But I think we can agree that death qualifies. And that people who have never left the house unclothed having to wear another half-ounce of fabric in public is not.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#366

Post by wpietri » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 3:34 PM UTC

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #204

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I should be free to profit regardless of harm to others.” Better?

How is that better? Can you point to a single example where a person made such a claim? Just a single example. Go ahead, I'll wait.

They don't have to make the claim in words. They do it with their behavior.

If people see their freedom as reasonably limited when it harms others, then if that harm is pointed out to them, they'll immediately apologize and stop. The more energy people put into persisting despite that, the clearer it is they don't actually care.

You can look at the history of pretty much any piece of extant consumer or worker protection to find examples of this. Go read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle", for example, which painted a portrait of large companies abusing both. It kicked off a long struggle that ended up with substantial shifts in the law. Or you could look at the long history of workplace safety in coal mines. The coal barons clearly saw workers as expendable and any encroachment on their freedoms as intolerable.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#367

Post by wpietri » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #339

wpietri wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I once saw a quote from an accountant: "Don't tell me your priorities. Show me your budget and I'll tell you your priorities." Even utter sociopaths know not to talk like they don't give a shit about anybody else. The social consequences for that are too high. So if we want to understand what people care about, we can't just go with their claims about their motivations. We have to look at where they put in t…

You seem to be really going overboard with the strawman arguments here. > So if we want to understand what people care about, we can't just go with their claims about their motivations. I never claimed we should do that. Nobody else claimed such a thing either. Also, I take it as concession that you were unable to provide a single example to support your claim.

You were focused on what people say. In particular "literally no-one on earth saying". I'm saying that asking them isn't sufficient to understand their priorities. People lie, Virginia.

I have provided examples elsewhere. But if they aren't sufficient for you, take it as anything you like. I long ago stopped caring that every internet on the random understood my point, especially the ones working hard to not get what I'm saying.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#368

Post by Iv » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

datavirtue wrote: post #363

Iv wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bet is advertisement. We know it is detrimental to informed decision, to market efficiency and to mental health. This is just an opinion that can't be relayed on any outlet that depends on advertisement (90% of them maybe?)

Advertisement is great if all claims are required to be 100% true and provable.

Then it is called journalism. It already exists and it is usually considered unethical to fund it when you are one of the object of their scrutiny.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#369

Post by CyanBird » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #181

JohnWhigham wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PFAS and phthalates are 2 of the biggest things. An working federal government would have banned these decades ago. Also, plastics touching food ever. "Food grade" plastic is a myth sold to us by the plastics industry. This one is going to take longer though.

Re. "food grade": I think maybe some plastics might be ok, but, when I've recently done some projects involving plastic parts, I've been shocked to learn how little is food-grade. Like, almost nothing with any dye, especially any black dye. Yet how often does one see black plastic cutlery and plates, or microwave dinner trays? Then they have this legalese on them like "do not reheat". WTF? Rubbermaid containers don't…

What is the issue with black ink? Is it part of the chemistry of it having things potentially harmful or else?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#370

Post by CyanBird » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #245

stefan_ wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wood heating remains improbably popular (and favorably regulated). Not to mention the stupidity of diesel cars: trading a little bit less CO2 for actively poisoning the lungs of your immediate environment.

Wood is at least not a fossil fuel.

Just ensure that it is dry (actually dry) and that the combustion is complete

In South of Chile where wood is a very common and available fuel for cooking or heating this has been a permanent issue every winter, too many people with asthma as a consequence of pm2.5 and other particulate materials