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Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

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Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#31

Post by bserge »

PeterisP wrote: post #19
marvin wrote: post #4

It's weird that we have higher late-summer electricity prices that we did mid-winter this year. But all things considered, energy prices do in fact need to be high in order to support faster deployment of renewables and CO2-neutral energy. Sucks for everyone who has marginal incomes, but I'm sure we can make some adjustments to the safety net policies to mitigate that.

I wouldn't be surprised that if this trend increases and the push comes to shove, then the voters - especially those on marginal incomes - might decide that actually they much prefer lower energy prices instead of supporting renewables and CO2-neutral energy; and in democratic countries it's the general public who are entitled to make that choice for their country instead of accepting the decisions of elites/experts…

> it's the general public who are entitled to make that choice for their country instead of accepting the decisions of elites/experts and waiting for safety net policies to compensate for the suck.

Nah, people will do as they're told.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#32

Post by tehsauce »

cure wrote: post #26
28511524 wrote: post #2

“Options include reserve thermal power plants, battery storage or cables for importing electricity from other markets.” Or nuclear. Sad that this isn’t seen as an option any longer.

> Or nuclear. Sad that this isn’t seen as an option any longer. Maybe this statement is just a reflection of what can be done in a reasonable amount of time (a few years)? Planning and building nuclear plants takes an order of magnitude longer, it seems.

realistically building batteries or thermal storage at that scale will probably take as long as nuclear plants

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#33

Post by marvin »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #9
marvin wrote: post #4

It's weird that we have higher late-summer electricity prices that we did mid-winter this year. But all things considered, energy prices do in fact need to be high in order to support faster deployment of renewables and CO2-neutral energy. Sucks for everyone who has marginal incomes, but I'm sure we can make some adjustments to the safety net policies to mitigate that.

> But all things considered, energy prices do in fact need to be high in order to support faster deployment of renewables and CO2-neutral energy. >Sucks for everyone who has marginal incomes, but I'm sure we can make some adjustments to the safety net policies to mitigate that. When people complain about policies that screw the middle class this is exactly the kind of stuff they are talking about. The poors scrape by…

While I agree in general, I'd argue that energy/climate gas emissions are in its own category, because they represent an unpriced externality that will have terrible consequences if the world doesn't get serious about sustainable solutions very soon.

Also keep in mind that my country has an annual national budget of $35,000 per capita, one third of which goes to welfare programs. We practically have a basic income program going already.

We're not totally insulated from the forces that besiege the middle class, but I'm pretty sure we're mitigating them as well as anyone. Would love to hear your suggestions on what policies would do better, assuming an intention to prevent catastrophic global climate change.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#34

Post by giarc »

cure wrote: post #26
28511524 wrote: post #2

“Options include reserve thermal power plants, battery storage or cables for importing electricity from other markets.” Or nuclear. Sad that this isn’t seen as an option any longer.

> Or nuclear. Sad that this isn’t seen as an option any longer. Maybe this statement is just a reflection of what can be done in a reasonable amount of time (a few years)? Planning and building nuclear plants takes an order of magnitude longer, it seems.

The best time to plant a tree is 30 years ago, the second best time is now.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#35

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

junon wrote: post #16
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or nuclear. Sad that this isn’t seen as an option any longer Is anti-nuclear sentiment consistent across Europe?

It is here in Germany. Nobody here likes nuclear. My ex is a PhD in bioinformatics and argues against nuclear using quite outdated information, even. Nuclear is a non-starter for many. Too many people afraid of another Chernobyl or nuclear waste handling without understanding what caused the former or not being informed about how we deal with the latter, today.

> how we deal with the latter, today

News and images like this https://www.thelocal.de/20141010/one-third-of-barrels-leak-a... (2014) don't exactly help restore confidence.

(If you can't get that to load, here's the same in German https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Loechrige-Atom-Faesser-entdeckt-...)

Edit to add, the infamous old picture of a loader dumping barrels into a pit in the Asse II salt mine: https://static.dw.com/image/16445664_303.jpg - while this happened decades ago, the mine is an ongoing problem that makes the news every year with new leaks or progress of the remediation effort, lack of progress, or predictions of collapse before the remediation can be completed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asse_II_mine).

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#37

Post by ddevault »

28511524 wrote: post #2

“Options include reserve thermal power plants, battery storage or cables for importing electricity from other markets.” Or nuclear. Sad that this isn’t seen as an option any longer.

Maybe someone can correct me, but I don't see how we're going to get out of climate change (generally, but also specifically) without nuclear power. We need something which can produce a reliable base load and I don't think there are any other widely available options which don't produce heaps of emissions.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#38

Post by gambiting »

morsch wrote: post #21
junon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is here in Germany. Nobody here likes nuclear. My ex is a PhD in bioinformatics and argues against nuclear using quite outdated information, even. Nuclear is a non-starter for many. Too many people afraid of another Chernobyl or nuclear waste handling without understanding what caused the former or not being informed about how we deal with the latter, today.

You must mean tomorrow, because today, we just keep the stuff around in intermediate facilities.

The thing is, we know how to store nuclear waste in such a way that it's a solved problem forever. Literally gone and not a worry for any generation from now until forever.

It's called deep borehole disposal[0]. Drill a hole all the way down to Earth's crust, put your waste there = it's not coming back on anything shorter than geological timescale. " It is estimated that only 800 boreholes would be sufficient to store the entire existing nuclear waste stockpile of the USA"[0]

From what I understand it isn't being done for two reasons:

1) cost

2) once stored this way it's almost impossible to retrieve. Spent nuclear fuel is kept around partially because we know we might be able to recycle it into fresh fuel in the future. If we dump it in a hole deep in the ground it's gone forever.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_borehole_disposal

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#39

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

ElectricityMap is a nice live view of current energy generation and consumption by type of energy. Unfortunately right now https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/DE shows Germany is generating most energy from Coal. It is sad that they didn't embrace nuclear like neighboring France.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#40

Post by Factorium »

28511524 wrote: post #2

“Options include reserve thermal power plants, battery storage or cables for importing electricity from other markets.” Or nuclear. Sad that this isn’t seen as an option any longer.

The major issue is regulation, which is not designed for things like Small Modular Nuclear Reactors:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_modular_reactor

We could be building hundreds of these across Europe, placing them close to small cities and using the waste heat for district heating.

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