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Record number of environmental activists murdered

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#51

Post by happymellon »

ArchieMaclean wrote: post #16
cenophor wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is murder, not people falling off the cliff because of some accidents. There is probably nothing logically wrong with that question, and you are probably right that there is a correlation. But... seriously?

Of course we should be doing all we can to prevent murder! It is just always hard to tell with statistics and having a more honest statistic (that, say, shows that murder rates have doubled while number of activists have increased 30%) would be preferable.

So you are okay with corporate murder, as long as they don't murder more than have become activists as a ratio?

If murder rates have doubled that is bad, regardless of the number of people becoming activists.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#52

Post by jamesrcole »

yunohn wrote: post #35
ArchieMaclean wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you won't be able to get a hard number of people, you could get a general number/trend (e.g. by counting the increase of people to rallies)

I’m pretty sure activists are not just “people who show up to rallies”. Especially not the kind that a megacorp is trying to murder.

the idea that there's no possible way to reasonably estimate the number of environmental activists seems very unlikely to me.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#53

Post by yunohn »

jamesrcole wrote: post #52
yunohn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m pretty sure activists are not just “people who show up to rallies”. Especially not the kind that a megacorp is trying to murder.

the idea that there's no possible way to reasonably estimate the number of environmental activists seems very unlikely to me.

Do you happen to have some sources for a reasonable estimation on the number of, say…

• hackers? • crackers? • political activists?

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#54

Post by zimbatm »

ArchieMaclean wrote: post #3

How does this compare to the growth in the number of environmental activists overall? Edit: it was pointed out below that it's probably more influenced by an increase in environmentally damaging activities such as logging. Edit 2: Yes, I think that murdering peaceful, innocent protestors is a disgusting act. I'm just questioning the article's use of statistics

Wouldn't you expect the number of murders to go down if there are more activists united in one region?

To paint a clearer picture you would have to look at the distribution of both murders and new activists. I bet there are more online activists now, but it doesn't necessarily translate to having more helpers in poor areas. Which are where the natural resources are.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#55

Post by jamesrcole »

spuz wrote: post #29
_dain_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it has everything to do with it. if the murder rate remains constant and a group doubles in size, then on average twice as many people in that group will get murdered.

Why would you expect the murder rate to be constant? It's plausible the opposite is true that the more murders there are, the more publicity they get overall and the more cautious would-be murderers become.

> Why would you expect the murder rate to be constant?

they didn't expect it to be, they said if it remains constant.

You seem to be the one making the assumption -- that it wouldn't remain constant -- otherwise why would you have made that comment?

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#56

Post by playpause »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #8
cenophor wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is murder, not people falling off the cliff because of some accidents. There is probably nothing logically wrong with that question, and you are probably right that there is a correlation. But... seriously?

Yes, seriously. Number one failure in sensationalized reporting is base rate fallacy: they point out a high absolute number, implying something strange is going on, whereas usually the denominator - which they neglect to mention - has rose proportionally, meaning there's nothing newsworthy there. I don't mean this is the case here (I'm yet to read the article itself) - but this failure mode in reporting is so common…

These are murders of people. The pertinent comparison (for those interested in the whole "murders" thing) is with how many murders there were in previous years, whether it's gone up, etc, information which is covered in the article. To say there's nothing newsworthy about these murders, just because you were personally interested in a number you couldn't find in the article, is crass.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#57

Post by squarefoot »

ArchieMaclean wrote: post #16
cenophor wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is murder, not people falling off the cliff because of some accidents. There is probably nothing logically wrong with that question, and you are probably right that there is a correlation. But... seriously?

Of course we should be doing all we can to prevent murder! It is just always hard to tell with statistics and having a more honest statistic (that, say, shows that murder rates have doubled while number of activists have increased 30%) would be preferable.

The increasing number of activists murders to me only indicates that the killers and especially whoever is behind them isn't being caught and is still free to eliminate again and again people they find inconvenient for their businesses. If each one of them was arrested and given a life sentence after each murder, whether committed or by contract, we probably would have solved the problem ages ago. Those people have shitloads of money at disposal for hiring gunmen, so I expect they can buy other people among the local law enforcement too.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#58

Post by yunohn »

andriesm wrote: post #50
yunohn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite this weird sub-thread, the article isn’t talking about “dangerosity”. They’re reporting on the increase in evil activities by anti-environmental mega corps, who are also murdering opposing activists.

What indication do we have that environmentalally unfriendly companies are murdering activists? I cannot imagine that being their best PR strategy, not to mention the fact that murdering your opposition attracts a lot of scrutiny, investigation, and which corp exec would want to risk going to jail for ordering a hit on an activist. Far more practical to lobby or spread counter marketing spin.

Wow. Not sure I want to even try replying to this uninformed mess of a comment.

I’ve never been more sure of the sad HN bubble.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#59

Post by bildung »

anticodon wrote: post #36
adham01 wrote: post #12

The year is 2087, the remaining scientists that weren't hunted down in the previous year, have issued a dire warning that time is running out for action on climate change. The claim is rebuked again by a conglomerate consisting of Breathing apparatus manufacturers, Sunblock body-paint makers, Subterranean city developers, Biohazard swimsuit makers, Soylent green icecream industries, Nestlé, FEMA holiday camps, and th…

But also remember the hysteria about ozone depletion, which served the interest of DuPont. It's a mystery how heavy halocarbon could reach stratosphere. Nevertheless, thanks to "environmental" activists, DuPont had become richer.

You seem to have mixed up your conspiracies, DuPont itself was the one calling ozone depletion "a science fiction tale … a load of rubbish … utter nonsense", according to wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#60

Post by jamesrcole »

yunohn wrote: post #53
jamesrcole wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the idea that there's no possible way to reasonably estimate the number of environmental activists seems very unlikely to me.

Do you happen to have some sources for a reasonable estimation on the number of, say… • hackers? • crackers? • political activists?

nope. What has that got to do with my comment? Someone was implying that it was impossible, I was saying that claim was implausible. People estimate those kinds of numbers all the time for statistical purposes.
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