Record number of environmental activists murdered • Hacker News Board

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#31

Post by ArchieMaclean » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:44 AM UTC

yunohn wrote: post #23

ArchieMaclean wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course we should be doing all we can to prevent murder! It is just always hard to tell with statistics and having a more honest statistic (that, say, shows that murder rates have doubled while number of activists have increased 30%) would be preferable.

I’m not sure what kind of number you’re looking for. There’s no global registry tracking the population of environmental activists - just that when people are murdered by anti-green corporations, we can figure out that the person’s activism is what caused it.

While you won't be able to get a hard number of people, you could get a general number/trend (e.g. by counting the increase of people to rallies)

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#32

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:44 AM UTC

ArchieMaclean wrote: post #3

How does this compare to the growth in the number of environmental activists overall? Edit: it was pointed out below that it's probably more influenced by an increase in environmentally damaging activities such as logging. Edit 2: Yes, I think that murdering peaceful, innocent protestors is a disgusting act. I'm just questioning the article's use of statistics

[deleted]

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#33

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:44 AM UTC

krageon wrote: post #20

TeMPOraL wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, seriously. Number one failure in sensationalized reporting is base rate fallacy: they point out a high absolute number, implying something strange is going on, whereas usually the denominator - which they neglect to mention - has rose proportionally, meaning there's nothing newsworthy there. I don't mean this is the case here (I'm yet to read the article itself) - but this failure mode in reporting is so common…

I get that at some point murder becomes statistics, but I still feel the need to re-emphasize that this is murder . Not more folks getting the flu because there are more folks.

Fair enough, and I agree. People are being murdered, and that's the more important topic.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#34

Post by bryanrasmussen » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:44 AM UTC

_dain_ wrote: post #18

Shacklz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are climate activists expected to "take some loss" or what exactly are you implying with this question? If people die because they engage in non-violent activism it's just wrong, plain and simple, there's no gray area (at least I have a very hard time thinking of one). The overall number of activists or the growth thereof has absolutely nothing to do with that.

it has everything to do with it. if the murder rate remains constant and a group doubles in size, then on average twice as many people in that group will get murdered.

then the question is why does the murder rate remain constant, is the chance of death by corporation a part of being an activist.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#35

Post by yunohn » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

ArchieMaclean wrote: post #31

yunohn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure what kind of number you’re looking for. There’s no global registry tracking the population of environmental activists - just that when people are murdered by anti-green corporations, we can figure out that the person’s activism is what caused it.

While you won't be able to get a hard number of people, you could get a general number/trend (e.g. by counting the increase of people to rallies)

I’m pretty sure activists are not just “people who show up to rallies”. Especially not the kind that a megacorp is trying to murder.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#36

Post by anticodon » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

adham01 wrote: post #12

The year is 2087, the remaining scientists that weren't hunted down in the previous year, have issued a dire warning that time is running out for action on climate change. The claim is rebuked again by a conglomerate consisting of Breathing apparatus manufacturers, Sunblock body-paint makers, Subterranean city developers, Biohazard swimsuit makers, Soylent green icecream industries, Nestlé, FEMA holiday camps, and th…

But also remember the hysteria about ozone depletion, which served the interest of DuPont. It's a mystery how heavy halocarbon could reach stratosphere. Nevertheless, thanks to "environmental" activists, DuPont had become richer.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#37

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:48 AM UTC

spuz wrote: post #29

_dain_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it has everything to do with it. if the murder rate remains constant and a group doubles in size, then on average twice as many people in that group will get murdered.

Why would you expect the murder rate to be constant? It's plausible the opposite is true that the more murders there are, the more publicity they get overall and the more cautious would-be murderers become.

Perhaps. Maybe it's constant, maybe it's rising, or maybe it's falling. To be able to tell, you need the denominator - that's why it's important.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#38

Post by cm2187 » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:48 AM UTC

_Microft wrote: post #9

kleiba wrote: post #4

I know we're not drawing from a random distribution here, but presumably, the number of environmentalists has also risen dramatically in recent years.

How would that lead to more killings? It is not like activists come with an innate probability to be killed because of their work.

The article mentions countries like South Africa, Honduras and Mexico, that have shockingly high rates of crime and murders. If you increase the population sample you will necessarily capture more incidents that are unrelated to the activism. The question is how much of it is unrelated. I think it is a fair question.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#39

Post by zohch » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

anderson1993 wrote: post #10

The police are in on it, the government is in on it, the corporation is responsible. Clear as day.

> The police are in on it, the government is in on it, the corporation is responsible.

Then why does it not stop? If you look at the countries where this problem is occuring, they don't really have highly effective governments, they have lots of corruption, and generally high crime rates.

If the governments do not prosecute those responsible and hold corporations to account, this won't stop, and if the people in those countries by and large continue their support for their corrupt governments and police, then that will also not change.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#40

Post by yunohn » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

IMTDb wrote: post #28

cenophor wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is murder, not people falling off the cliff because of some accidents. There is probably nothing logically wrong with that question, and you are probably right that there is a correlation. But... seriously?

Yes, seriously. The real question is : "Is environmental activism today more dangerous than it was yesterday". The typical way of computing "dangerosity" is through a ratio. Eg: number of death / kilometer for transportation systems, number of injury / game for sports, ... Why should the dangerosity of the "environmental activism" activity be computed differently, by only taking into consideration a numerator, and di…

Despite this weird sub-thread, the article isn’t talking about “dangerosity”. They’re reporting on the increase in evil activities by anti-environmental mega corps, who are also murdering opposing activists.