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Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

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Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#411
post #318

All these complaints are true, and there’s many similar ones. Firefox (née Mozilla) is a terribly mismanaged company. Instead of focusing on their core business, making a great browser, they keep launching weird also-ran side projects that inevitably fail, to name a few: Firefox VPN, Firefox Notes, Firefox Lockwise, Firefox Monitor, Firefox Send, Firefox Hello, Firefox OS, Mozilla Persona, etc. It’s one thing to frit…

Make up your minds

"Mozilla get 95% of their revenue from Google, that's terrible! They shouldn't be so dependent!"

"How dare Mozilla try to make money from products other than Firefox!"

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#413

Saying that tabs-on-top killed Firefox when it's literally used by the winning browser (Chrome) as well as Edge and Brave is such a peak Hacker News moment. Nitpicking for the one detail that person didn't like and making it look like an obvious mistake everyone else should have seen but somehow hasn't. Firefox lost because they couldn't keep up and there was little justification for why do you need to use it unless…

> Mozilla's management is also to blame. They expanded into a whole plethora of projects that all have been killed, they bought Pocket and did nothing with it.

Pocket is one of the few external revenue sources they actually have.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#414
post #60

I have an alternative set of explanations regarding why Firefox is seeing a continuous decline for the last 12 years. 1. Mozilla is competing against Google. Numbers are not public but I would be surprised if Google didn't have 10x more people working on Chrome vs. the number of people working on Firefox. 2. Mozilla is competing against Google. Numbers are again not public but I remember reading estimates that the eq…

There was also something about Firefox being actively antagonistic to being easy to mass deploy and manage by IT?

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Telemetry is not a vote From the developer point of view, this is incorrect, the developers are using it to decide which features to prioritize. If you are aware that it's happening and you leave it on, then I don't see what the problem is. Resource and bandwidth usage should be very minimal, if it's not then I would urge you to actually measure it and report bugs. It should be possible to compress it so that it doe…

> If you are aware that it's happening and you leave it on, then I don't see what the problem is. Most people are not aware of telemetry. Most of those that are, disable it. So you end up getting what you call 'votes' from the people who are not aware they are 'voting'. That is not voting (for which a person need to be consciously doing it) but rather extraction of information. Imagine in an election, the votes of th…

>Most people are not aware of telemetry. Most of those that are, disable it.

Do you have some numbers to back this up? I would suggest getting that before making any major product decisions. Also if you read the privacy policy, the telemetry is spelled out in detail, or at least it should be, so the people who are voting should be well aware of what is going on. If nobody reads it, then the solution there would then be to make it obvious and easy to read, not to throw it out completely.

>I fully agree, that is the other reason zero telemetry is a way to go and should be default. You can not beat that.

I don't understand. That isn't a meaningful comparison because you're comparing it with nothing, you would need to present an alternate data source. This to me is kind of like saying "not having a stomach beats having a stomach because you won't need to worry about eating anymore" or something like that.

>Imagine in an election, the votes of those who didn't explicitly vote get automatically extracted and cast based on a biased algorithm produced by the government.

I'm sorry but this is exactly what various governments already do in a lot of cases. Not for general elections but for services or programs that they run or for appointed positions. They will do a study with passive data gathering and determine who is actually using what services, and if the results are good they will increase funding to the service, otherwise they will cut funding, fire people, etc. This is generally how any organization functions at scale, so I really don't understand what you're getting at here or what alternative you're proposing. If you want to apply this to product development, it would simply be infeasible for users to vote on every single ticket that a developer handles, so you need to find some other data-driven way to make decisions. That's what telemetry is put in place to do. I think there is a misunderstanding here of how this works, but it's not your fault.

I wish you luck with your company, but I suspect you will have difficulty getting funding on the level of Firefox or Chrome, especially if you have no hard data from some kind of telemetry or similar source. The privacy-conscious user is known to be a fickle market. I also would advise against making misleading and/or unsourced statements about other browsers if you intend to develop a competing product, this makes your company look bad.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making a lot of assumptions about Mozilla's employee base here...

As TFA says, it's about Mozilla's employees. "Thinking you know best" is an attitude that leads you to fire people for out-of-work disagreements, and also remove features that "no one uses", and also divert money from useful products (Firefox) to products that they are "just sure" will be a huge hit (Firefox OS) but then turn out to be total flops. Mozilla's problem is that its organization (the collective outcome of…

Not sure that's especially true. Eich has admitted he had trouble hiring for Brave when he started the company, in large part because of the culture war nonsense.

There's actively woke techies (of which there are quite a few), but then there are also techies who just have a huge distaste for cultural conservatism, and of those there are many.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um. A "hapless victim" of the US culture wars? Mozilla quite deliberately committed suicide - they bought a fucking fireworks show to announce to the world that if you had views as conservative or more conservative that the average American, you had a permanent glass ceiling for your employment at Mozilla. Now they struggle to hire developers over the age of 25 - who would have guessed? Describing the prosecutors of…

If I were an LGBT employee at Mozilla, I would be pretty pissed and demoralized that my "leader" was actively trying to remove my rights. Because that's what Proposition 8 was, an attempt to constitutionally remove marriage rights from gay people after the California courts ruled that it was allowed. I think I'd be pretty uncomfortable making money for a person who would turn around and it to take away my / my family…

And what does "be conservative, if anyone finds out you don't have a job anymore" amount to? That seems to be pretty much okay nowadays.

The fundamental thing with politics is that there will be disagreement, and things will be voted on, and positions on those will be campaigned on.

As far as I know Eich didn't publicize those stances, someone dug them up. That is, there was a job, and there was personal politics, as is professional.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#418
post #315
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, once upon a time, Microsoft invested quite a bit of money in Apple to keep them alive. Allegedly, they did this so they could tell the DoJ with a straight face that they were not a monopolist, after all they had a competitor. I would not be surprised if Google's support for Mozilla is based on similar reasoning.

>Well, once upon a time, Microsoft invested quite a bit of money in Apple to keep them alive. This is not what happened. Microsoft was involved in a lawsuit after paying one of Apple contractors to steal QuickTime code. "investing" in Apple was part of the settlement. https://www.theregister.com/1998/10/29/microsoft_paid_apple_... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5TdqfNE1QU

Huh, I didn't know that. You learn something new every day.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#419
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What did "marriage rights" actually change? I know taxes changed, and I assume there were some property implications beyond just sticking it to bigoted Christians, but that last part seemed to be the major feature. If your "partner" is dying in the hospital, you don't have a legal right to be allowed to see them. If your "spouse" is dying in the hospital, you do. That's one example.

Okay, that's a good concrete example.

It's also false. California had Domestic Partnership law that, as amended by 2008, afforded domestic partnerships the same rights and responsibilities as marriages under state law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_Califo...

I'm assuming dralley didn't know (is not lying), so my advice is to check incendiary claims and avoid parroting sources you have not checked. HTH!

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the result is that Mozilla is a zombie company, filled with LGBT employees who would rather work for a company that is useless than one that has a leader who opposes gay marriage. That's fine for the U25s, but as people get older, they usually want to work for a company that is accomplishing something. I understand the folks who wanted that and why they wanted that. But it still turned Mozilla and Firefox into wa…

You're making a stupendously massive, unjustified assumption that Brendan Eich would somehow have prevented Mozilla from being in this position. They're competing against Apple, Google, and Microsoft simultaneously. It is entirely possible that could have been the best CEO in the world and Firefox could still be in the same exact position right now, or one that is only marginally better.

I probably couldn't have saved Mozilla given all their constraints and baggage. But on market share, I am confident I did something right since Mozilla. Brave is heading toward 38M MAU this month while Firefox has lost 50M users since 2018. Brave was small in 2018, and we've shown consistent monthly, steady low-exponential growth since, so much of our growth may have come from Firefox (but we aim to pull from Chrome).

I hope you can get over your anger at me and comment on market share. Excusing Mozilla's woes with "no CEO could have done better" hypotheticals is weak. Such CEO performance should in any event not be rewarded with >$3M/year.

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