Irony is you have to show your papers (id showing proof of age) to get into nightclubs anyway.
When is the last time you needed to show your papers to enter a mall? Or a library? Or a museum? Or a public restroom? Or a McDonalds?
England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
321–330 of 460 posts
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#322The thing that people seem to be ignoring in all of this is that people like having power. The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but unless you are successful at completely shutting down travel to the rest of the world: not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated. If you're vaccinated, you can still get a…
> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid.
If you are vaccinated you are less likely to get COVID, less likely to spread it at peak (except, apparently, with Delta) while you have it, and have a shorter contagious period (even with Delta).
So, yes, you can still get and spread it, but you are significantly less likely to.
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not GP. You're comparing apples to oranges. If I get into a car accident and you're across town, you're right, that doesn't affect you. Likewise, if I get COVID and you're across town, I can't infect you, so likewise, you're not affected. However, if we're on the same side of town, and I get into a car accident, it could affect you because I might hit you. Likewise, if I get COVID, and we're on the same side of town,…
> You might protest that I could still infect you if I get COVID on the opposite side of town by infecting someone else who infects you. This is false. The person who actually infected you infected you If you had reasonable actions available to you (wearing a mask, getting vaccinated) that you chose not to pursue, then yes, in my view you do bear some responsibility for continuing the chain of infection. If you had t…
Patient zero had reasonable actions they could have done. They could have followed protocols better, so should we still blame them?
If I get a vaccine and suffer an adverse reaction, should I receive blame for getting the vaccine? After all, since compensation for adverse reactions are paid for by society (the government), I failed to protect my life and my community, as you say.
By the way, hospitals have been under strain long before COVID. That's how they operate.
Also, if I get vaccinated and found get myself tested regularly, I could spread COVID. Is taking a test weekly to prevent spread as a vaccinated person a reasonable action?
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#324Earlier quoted context omitted.
No it's shit. Just let people decide if they want to get the vaccination or not, and go on with life as normal. By now everyone can get it and be protected against the virus. You now have the immunity, so act like it! Stop dragging this out with requiring passports, masks, and whatnot. The "main concern" aren't tourists - tourists are the lifeblood of many places, and they should be welcomed. They come to you to see…
> You now have the immunity, so act like it! This is factually incorrect. The Covid-19 vaccines significantly reduce symptoms, risk of hospitalisation, risk of death, and transmission rate. They are worth it on balance if you care about your own health, and/or the health of other people you interact with, especially those close to you, for almost everyone above a fairly low age. But they do not provide complete immun…
> Which means other people's behaviour still affects you.
We have multiple vaccines for well over 9 months now. Anybody who needs them can get them for free. Covid is never going away -- it is endemic. Dragging this pandemic game past vaccines is unethical as hell.
People need to accept that covid is always around now and get back to actual life. It may come as a shock to some people but there is an entire world of problems besides the myopic fixation on exactly one illness. Life is to be lived, not survived. Move on. Covid myopia is a disease much worse than covid itself.
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
We already spend a lot on healthcare as it is, more so here in the USA than in countries with universal healthcare. Should we go from spending 17.7% of our GDP to 30%? Just because some people aren’t interested getting a vaccine?
The USA doesn't spend the amount it does on healthcare out of necessity, it does it because of graft. If we're willing to spend twice as much as everyone else for no reason, why not four times as much?
So? If healthcare needs rise, what is to assume that the graft won’t rise with it? The same people against vaccines are also against universal healthcare (at least in the states), so these problems will just keep being compounded.
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For people who are vaccinated and still get infected (i.e., “breakthrough infections”), there is a risk of transmission to others. Not sure why you’d want to suppress that truth. It’s just a little vague on how big the chances are.
Of course the vaccination isn't a perfect shield -- not against covid infections nor transmission... who said it was? But wouldn't that be a pretty stupid bar to set? You said the vaccine does not prevent people from getting infected. That is not true. The popular vaccines are about 95% effective. Also, people who are not infected do not transmit the virus -- that is a rather effective limit on transmission. Apart fr…
Of course! Now how is it logical to not allow person A, who has X*1.6 chance of infecting someone else, into a bar without a test, but do allow person B, who has X chance of infecting someone else? Is X chance not a problem, but X*1.6 is? And why is that? Just because the blessed action results in a chance of X?
edit by the way the magical number for how effective the popular vaccines are against getting infected and being able to infect others, is not 95%. It’s 42% and dropping for the Pfizer vaccine.
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#327Reading threads like this, I get the sense that the very notion of civil liberties is completely foreign to vaccine fans.
I get the sense that people like police states that are pointed at other people, not themselves.
Moral authoritarians in general should be strongly opposed no matter what their values are, I struggle to think of a more retrograde force against human progress than the kind of curtain-twitching, aggressively conventional sort of person whose world view is “I’m absolutely right and you’re wrong, because I’m an authority figure and I said so”. People with an overemphasised disgust reaction are genuinely terrifying as a bloc because they’re fertile soil for the seeds of tyranny to grow in.
Moral authoritarians who get powerful enough produce an ideological monoculture, something which does to ideas exactly what inbreeding does to genes. You can see this eventually in any overly authoritarian system, no strict moralistic ideology can survive contact with objective reality in all its shades of grey forever. Political and moral opinions can only ever be approximately correct, but moral authoritarians think they can just ignore all the complexity and produce simple answers with all the finesse and grace of a freight train that ignores the curves in its track as too complicated to bother with.
Ideological pluralism and cognitive diversity are so important for a free society that can grow and develop, and moral authoritarians stand directly opposed to these things. Unfortunately the pandemic has brought many of them out of the woodwork and validated their appalling worldview.
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#328Earlier quoted context omitted.
Those numbers seem to match the numbers from the site I posted. The rational ground site also shows the numbers in relation to capacity. You can filter by state. Based on the numbers and your original post, it doesn't seem to be a statewide issue. It is a localized issue of what seems an area covered by 10 hospitals. The relevance is that hospitals having issues with capacity is not beyond the realm of normal.
The site you posted only goes to Aug 27th, which is hopelessly outdated for a rapidly deteriorating situation. The actual information from the Idaho Division of Public Health indicates 10 ICU beds staffed and available across the entire state as of yesterday. This is after activating the national guard to assist. If that's not a crisis, I don't know what is. You seem caught up in a narrative that this is not real, I…
I'm caught up in the narrative of looking at all the data and comparing with relevant perspectives.
Thanks for yours and your input.
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#329As they should be, considering that the vaccines do not stop people from getting infected and infecting others. Making sure there are only vaccinated people in a bar does not mean the people inside can’t get infected so this measure does not help achieve that goal.
Clearly only true solution to stop spread is permanent lockdown. And ban bars, restaurants, events and any sort of gatherings forever. I believe all pro-vaccine people already agree that no sacrifice of freedoms is too big for greater good. After all, why wouldn't they support keeping the vulnerable safe? Cost is only small sacrifice in bodily autonomy and clearly most effective thing to do.
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Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the landscape for child and newborns is not entirely understood. Given that long COVID is rare in children, the personal risk tradeoff for a child is unclear at best. I would be hesitant to vaccinate my children (if I had any). Certainly if they were homebound.
That's a different point than before, though. That's child vaccination vs. general population vaccination.
Just because certain subgroups of people have valid reasons does not mean it applies to the general populace.