Live data from Hacker News

England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

bbc.co.uk

311–320 of 460 posts

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#311
post #73
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same brand of ‘successes’ can be achieved by banning alcohol, tobacco, fast food or whatever vice you want.

Which is why, in absolutely the same vein, there are regulations to incite people to consume less of those things - e.g. little branding, serious warnings and graphic pictures of the long term damage on tobacco packaging; a ban on advertisement for tobacco products; serious warnings and limitations on the advertisements for alcohol products; warnings/good advice on food-related advertisements, etc. etc. And all of th…

Why do we accept mere warnings and labels on everything else, but vaccines are supposed to be mandated? That's a double standard and hypocritical. Let governments keep advertising and let people make their own decisions.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#312
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those are largely proving your identity in a situation where you wish to identify yourself. Proving an unrelated fact about yourself solely because the government thinks so is a different thing.

Providing ID to enter a bar or nightclub (where some have these machines which no doubt capture and store that data) is commonplace even though the venue has no business knowing who the person is.

I mean the reason you do this is to prove you are 21. Requiring anybody who enters any random business on the street to show a vaccine card is not even close to an apt comparison.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#313
post #147
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will go to jail for repeatedly driving drunk even if you never have an accident. Do you also want prison time for unvaccinated people who repeatedly go out in public? I support you if you do.

No, but clearly many people do. I don't think we should make distinction if person spreading virus was vaccinated or not if we start to punish for that. That should not affect the punishment or how guilty person is. I see absolutely no reason why being vaccinated should protect you from criminal charges in case we start to charge for spreading covid. The person is as guilty without or with vaccine. They should have g…

[deleted]

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccinated people also spread covid. The #1 population-level defense against infection disease is self-isolation on symptoms onset. It is possible that vaccinated people spread covid more aggressively than unvaccinated, because the vaccines dull the symptoms to a point where they don't trigger the 'stay at home' signal anymore.

That’s like saying sober drivers can cause accidents. It’s the likelihood, and willful the personal choice that leads to a higher of incident which society decides whether or not to tolerate.

We also hold sober drivers accountable when they cause accidents. Why not vaccinated people when they spread the virus?

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#315
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those are largely proving your identity in a situation where you wish to identify yourself. Proving an unrelated fact about yourself solely because the government thinks so is a different thing.

I would say the hotel stay situation is more like a "papers please" than a "situation where I wish to identify myself". Last time I booked a hotel via an app at the last minute for an overnight stay after going to the pub in a city away from home, the booking process didn't mention we needed to show our passports at reception. It was a new policy for that hotel. When we went to the hotel, about midnight, of course we…

It varies in the US. Some is probably locality. Some is probably chain policy. Although hotels don't in general do the copy of passport things that is common in many places.

A few years back, I got in a tight situation. I had a last minute trip and, among other things, didn't grab the little travel folder which I have with backup ID, credit cards, etc.

Get my license out in the back of the car for TSA. Somehow I managed to lose it between there and the airport doors. Called the driver. They looked no luck. No idea what happened.

To my considerable surprise, the TSA let me fly with no real hassle. (Rules may have tightened.)

But when I got to the crappy Travelodge motel on the other side--no luck. I assume I would have had better luck at one of my regular chains but they didn't want to budge in spite of a wallet full of other cards and a photo company ID.

I wasn't sure where I was going to sleep but they eventually relented so long as I paid cash. Fortunately the cost was relatively low enough I was able to get enough of an ATM. (I didn't have photos on my phone.)

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#316
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should use the actual state's dashboard: https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/idaho.division.of.pub... And Idaho is absolutely overwhelmed. In past flu seasons they have not moved to crisis standards of care, I don't even see Idaho in the article you linked so I'm not sure what relevance it has here. Are you claiming the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare is unaware of their own ICU utilization status?

Those numbers seem to match the numbers from the site I posted. The rational ground site also shows the numbers in relation to capacity. You can filter by state. Based on the numbers and your original post, it doesn't seem to be a statewide issue. It is a localized issue of what seems an area covered by 10 hospitals. The relevance is that hospitals having issues with capacity is not beyond the realm of normal.

The site you posted only goes to Aug 27th, which is hopelessly outdated for a rapidly deteriorating situation. The actual information from the Idaho Division of Public Health indicates 10 ICU beds staffed and available across the entire state as of yesterday. This is after activating the national guard to assist. If that's not a crisis, I don't know what is.

You seem caught up in a narrative that this is not real, I urge you to consider the facts on the ground rather than fit things to your political views.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be okay with a card showing your religious affiliation before being allowed into a crowded public space? Or before being allowed to rent a truck, or buy fertilizer? Even though this would likely make the world safer: I wouldn't, and even though it wouldn't prevent me from doing anything, I would still resist it. But it would increase my safety, even though it would inconvenience some other people based on t…

Why do you think it would increase your safety? That's not at all obvious to me.

That is the thing I don't understand. Who do these vaccine cards protect?

Anybody can get a vaccine that keeps them out of the hospital or dying. There is no reason for a vaccinated individual to give a single hoot about the vaccination status of person next to them.

The idea that the vaccinated population needs to be "protected" from all the unvaccinated individuals is absurd. Covid is here forever and we will all probably catch it at some point. If you are vaccinated you'll at least not have any serious complications from it, which is pretty damn good...

So yeah, I haven't the faintest idea who vaccine passports actually protect?

Also, all these pro-mandate arguments never discuss if boosters will be required to remain a "vaccinated" status. Does that mean we are now obligated to get a booster every time it comes out?

And when does this all go away? At what point to we drop this stuff? Or are we seriously gonna be "carded" at the door of every business from here on out? Again, covid is here forever and there will always be some level of "cases" provided we continue testing for it...

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#318
post #48
post #39

> "I've never liked the idea of saying to people you must show your papers or something to do what is just an everyday activity, but we were right to properly look at it. We regularly show papers for everyday activities - library card for reading books, ID for a hotel stay, driving license for driving a car, ID to pickup a parcel etc.

Indeed. Bear in mind that that before becoming Health Secretary, Javid was very recently Chancellor of the Exchequer. Perhaps his motivations lie somewhere other than public health.

I've generally regarded his motivations as "be supine" and "pander to the right", whatever his role. His position on "papers please" type issues is mixed, saying one thing and doing another. I can't tell if that's because of his own personality, or because of ongoing prejudice in the British system and in the Conservative party, requiring him to not be too challenging. The way he was pushed out of the Chancellor position by Dominic Cummings sounded awful; I'm surprised he accepted another job under the present governent.

He was Home Secretary before being Chancellor, and in that role opted to keep up the Hostile Environment policies and Deport First, Appeal Later policies.

I mention those two, because they are indicative of a "papers please" type of culture.

The former requires every minor landlord to perform a "right to rent" check on every tenant or lodger they suspect to be not British, or face a large fine. Inevitably leading to landlords choosing not to rent to non-British people to avoid the hassle and risk of getting it wrong, an increase in homelessness among people without the right papers to prove they're allowed to pay for a home, and an increase in abusive housing relationships.

The latter ensure that illegal actions by the Home Office go unchallenged despite statistics showing the Home Office often acts unlawfully and often loses in court. It's very difficult for a person to conduct an appeal after they're removed from their own documents at home, legal support, income, friends, and other resources; this is also borne out in statistics: No appeal lodged in this way has succeeded, which stands in stark contrast to appeals lodged in country. (The UK Supreme Court just ruled this policy unlawful. I expect the Home Office will try to continue the policy anyway.)

Point is, Javid said he was going to address injustices in the immigration department when he became Home Secretary, and then he didn't.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#319

Just goes to show how weak this current government is. Polls show 60% approve of the idea, with 27% opposed. Yet they still can't get their own policy done due to infighting in the tory party.

> Polls show 60% approve of the idea, with 27% opposed.

Tyranny of the majority. Just because 60% support some crazy idea doesn't make it right.

Also the average american thinks if they catch covid the chances of dying are 10%[0]. For most age groups that is 100 or 1000 times off. People are wildly off on their estimates of how bad covid is. How can the average person make an informed, rational decision about public health policy if they think Covid is Black Plague v2.0?

[0] https://covid19pulse.usc.edu/

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#320

The thing that people seem to be ignoring in all of this is that people like having power. The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but unless you are successful at completely shutting down travel to the rest of the world: not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated. If you're vaccinated, you can still get a…

> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. You just don't get as sick. The vaccine protects you.

While you still can transmit COVID-19 if you're vaccinated against it, it's far less likely (the time during which you can transmit the disease is far shorter).

So while your statement might be technically correct, it is also very misleading.

> In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated.

What is over-vaccinating (and in a pandemic, no less)? And what is that argument you speak of?

Post reply on HN