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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#71

Post by stjohnswarts »

air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

Free markets work as long as there's competition. When companies become so big they can kill any nascent competitor on a whim, that's when it becomes an issue. That's why trust busting and regulations and governments are necessary.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#72

Post by [deleted] »

wpietri wrote: post #47
ithacaman wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The complexity is in proving what harm is being done and to whom.

Not generally. It mainly gets complex when the latter side wants to deny the harm. Then it's an ocean of motivated reasoning and endless arguments. We still have people arguing today that American slavery was good for the slaves.

[deleted]

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#73

Post by [deleted] »

wpietri wrote: post #45
ryandrake wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politicians live on fixed budgets, any private wealth is put in index funds I like where you are going with all this, but I'll nitpick here that while tying politicians' wealth to the overall stock market in general reduces their incentive to legislate in favor of particular companies, it does provide them incentive to legislate in favor of corporate America in general. We don't need laws that help stock market par…

Good point. I'd be happy with any sort of blind trust where it's reasonably correlated with overall economic health.

[deleted]

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#74

Post by space_rock »

sonthonax wrote: post #23
nso95 wrote: post #7

Gasoline is poison in general though

Refined oils aren't that poisonous. You could probably drink a gulp of pure octane and suffer no more than alcohol like effects and an upset stomach.

Ingestion of gasoline US CDC

"350 g (12 oz.) can result in death for a 70 kg individual. As little as 10 to 15 g (less than one-half ounce) may be fatal in children. Symptoms of intoxication by ingestion of gasoline can range from vomiting, vertigo, drowsiness and confusion to loss of consciousness, convulsions, hemorrhaging of the lungs and internal organs, and death due to circulatory failure. Ingestion can cause irritation to the gastrointestinal mucosa and can be complicated by pulmonary aspiration, resulting in chemical pneumonitis."

https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/MMG/MMGDetails.aspx?mmgid=465&toxid...

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#76

Post by nawgz »

air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

> I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "revelations" are really disheartening

> What are the solutions to this?

Not believing in propagandist fairy tales? The "free" market is clearly a lie, it's a false front around capitalists seeking to maximize profit based in the regulatory framework(s) that government(s) have stood up. These frameworks aren't respected for their actual spirit either, instead exploited to their literal letter at every moment.

To see someone on a logical forum like HN espouse a childish idea like "the free market will make an efficient solution", with none of the subtext that the solution is exclusively to the problem of making money, just shows how effective that propaganda is.

Instead, acknowledge reality: incentives control actions, and capitalist incentives exclusively are to make money and control markets. Captive markets make more money, so they will work towards aspects of the regulatory frameworks that they can use to keep others out.

There is no goodwill from corporations. There is no environmental concern from corporations. There is no concern on social impact from corporations. There are no morals in corporations. There is profit maximization techniques and nothing else.

The free market has seen capitalists destroy our world with barely an impressive invention along the way.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#77

Post by stjohnswarts »

fighterpilot wrote: post #67
air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

No, just tax or outlaw this behavior, don't nationalize industries. There is an intellectual framework in place for making sense of leaded petrol in the context of markets, and that's externalities. It is no different in concept to noise pollution, carbon pollution, or other types of externalities, it is just one that's significantly worse. Leaded petrol is at best a negative externality which should be taxed, and pr…

So we should just stop using airplanes because their fuel has lead in it? What?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#78

Post by wpietri »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #48
wpietri wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. I'd be happy with any sort of blind trust where it's reasonably correlated with overall economic health.

>correlated with overall economic health. How is this measured?

That's the rub, of course. I suspect there's a whole array of valid measures sufficient to blunt incentives. We don't need something perfect, just enough so legislators don't gain so much that their pecuniary motivations override their duty to public service (and their fear of getting caught). Right now they can profit massively from legislation by betting on individual companies. If they're instead looking at a blind trust that contains a mix of index funds, bond funds, etc, then they still are aligned with the wealthy, which is certainly bad, but any gains they can drive for themselves become much smaller.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#79

Post by stjohnswarts »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #71
air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

Free markets work as long as there's competition. When companies become so big they can kill any nascent competitor on a whim, that's when it becomes an issue. That's why trust busting and regulations and governments are necessary.

I've had this argument many times with my friends who are libertarian leaning and they start hand waving when you bring up a 100 different examples of companies being downright evil when they became too large.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#80

Post by inglor_cz »

nso95 wrote: post #7

Gasoline is poison in general though

It is fairly trivial to avoid drinking gasoline. For example, I managed it 100 per cent of the time so far, and I am 43.

It is not as trivial to avoid breathing in lead when you live around cars that use leaded gasoline.

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