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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#61

Post by gumby »

air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

> I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "revelations" are really disheartening.

There are many such examples. Here’s one from my life: when I was in the pharmaceutical business one of the chemists developed a treatment for a fairly common disease. He and a couple of others tried it on themselves. We could have patented it and run it through clinical trials, but it was something any compounding pharmacist could have whipped up so such a patent would have been worthless. We were a startup so didn’t spend any effort doing a study much less a full program. Instead there are marketed, less effective products on the market.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#62

Post by formerly_proven »

letitbeirie wrote: post #53
bombcar wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military planes just kerosene/JP-8 which contains no lead as far as I know.

Kerosene/JP-8 is great in a jet but it's not going to get you very far in a piston prop.

There is no particular reason why you can't put a diesel engine in a plane and indeed there are a number of diesel engines certified for just that.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#63

Post by kube-system »

bmitc wrote: post #58
kube-system wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure that removing IP from the equation would have wholly changed the situation. There are other ways to control markets and they likely would have leaned on them instead.

Do you have any examples?

The obvious example in my mind is a control of the means of production. For instance, if they used [x] instead and also happened to own all the [x] mines.

Or using anticompetitive practices to prevent competitors from joining the market.

Or by gaining regulatory capture.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#64

Post by bmitc »

Symmetry wrote: post #3

I've got a sneaking suspicion we ought to go through everything else Thomas MIdgley Jr. invented and ban it, just to be sure. Leaded gas, CFCs, and the contraption he killed himself with is a worrying pattern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr .

> However, within the first two months of its operation, the new plant was plagued by more cases of lead poisoning, hallucinations, insanity, and five deaths.

> On October 30, 1924, Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL, in which he poured TEL over his hands, placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose, and inhaled its vapor for 60 seconds, declaring that he could do this every day without succumbing to any problems. ... Midgley would later have to take leave of absence from work after being diagnosed with lead poisoning.

Guy sounds like a nut.

> Environmental historian J. R. McNeill opined that Midgley "had more impact on the atmosphere than any other single organism in Earth's history", and Bill Bryson remarked that Midgley possessed "an instinct for the regrettable that was almost uncanny".

Later down in the legacy section, these are some serious burns, almost laughable if it weren't for them being true and the consequences of that.

But I must say, although it's fun to pin it on one man, many people and corporations were involved in the propagation of his catastrophes.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#65

Post by Zigurd »

Aloha wrote: post #14
air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

TEL (tetraethyl lead) had and has other advantages over ethanol beyond patentability - Unlike TEL, ethanol is hydrophilic, which makes gasoline blended with it more apt to be contaminated with water, and other water containing contaminants, this is particularly relevant for aviation uses and also reducing incidences of vapor lock. TEL is also (more) rubber and seal friendly, other than the (very) high risk of lead to…

"Dry gas" which is used to correct moisture problems in cars' fuel systems is alcohol: Ethanol, methanol, etc. and it takes advantage of alcohol being hydrophilic.

Ethanol has requirements for hoses and seals that might otherwise be degraded by alcohol. But this is not an ongoing issue in modern vehicles.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#66

Post by formerly_proven »

bmitc wrote: post #64
Symmetry wrote: post #3

I've got a sneaking suspicion we ought to go through everything else Thomas MIdgley Jr. invented and ban it, just to be sure. Leaded gas, CFCs, and the contraption he killed himself with is a worrying pattern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr .

> However, within the first two months of its operation, the new plant was plagued by more cases of lead poisoning, hallucinations, insanity, and five deaths. > On October 30, 1924, Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL, in which he poured TEL over his hands, placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose, and inhaled its vapor for 60 seconds, declaring that he could do…

after being diagnosed with lead poisoning ... again.

> In 1923, Midgley took a long vacation in Miami, Florida, to cure himself of lead poisoning.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#67

Post by fighterpilot »

air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

No, just tax or outlaw this behavior, don't nationalize industries.

There is an intellectual framework in place for making sense of leaded petrol in the context of markets, and that's externalities. It is no different in concept to noise pollution, carbon pollution, or other types of externalities, it is just one that's significantly worse.

Leaded petrol is at best a negative externality which should be taxed, and probably should just be considered physical assault similar to punching someone in the face (the user of the petrol is giving others literal brain damage) and totally banned and criminalized.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#68

Post by wombatmobile »

air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

> I'm generally an avid beliver (sic) in free markets as an agent for positive change

That form of belief gets fixed in your mind via a very different method to beliefs such as "what goes up must come down".

It's not a result of distilling evidence.

It's a result of persuasion.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#69

Post by jzebedee »

gumby wrote: post #61
air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

> I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "revelations" are really disheartening. There are many such examples. Here’s one from my life: when I was in the pharmaceutical business one of the chemists developed a treatment for a fairly common disease. He and a couple of others tried it on themselves. We could have patented it and run it through clinical trials, b…

Have you written about this anywhere? I'm curious what common disease could be cured in the manner you described. It seems like the low-hanging fruit is already picked clean in the pharma industry.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#70

Post by jhallenworld »

tedd4u wrote: post #29
sircastor wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neil deGrasse Tyson said in an episode of Cosmos that even the Romans understood lead was dangerous, but it was a convenient metal to work with, so they used it anyway

And not just and convenient metal, but a preferred food and wine sweetener. For real!

They should have used diethylene glycol, like the Austrians:

https://www.thewinestalker.net/2015/04/austria.html

I wonder which tastes better?

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