England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says • Hacker News Board

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#201

Post by kuraudo » Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #161

Don’t worry everyone. The unilateral powers created by our government during covid is a one time thing. Surely covid will one day “go away”, and with it the surveillance state will dismantle their powers and stop trying to control what their citizens think and do!

I believe everyone should be vaccinated but your point worries me. This doesn't seem 'right.' I don't believe in conspiracy theories of people pushing anti vaccination propaganda just to bring this state of affairs about as some are suggesting: that said, I don't want us to be in this place, but I also want everyone vaccinated so the vaccines can actually work and we can eradicate this thing.

I can't help but feel manipulated in this state.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#202

Post by shucksley » Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 3:25 PM UTC

azalemeth wrote: post #44

cstross wrote: post #2

Note this is specific to England . Other countries in the UK are following their own course -- the Scottish government agreed in principle to introduce vaccine passports as of a week ago and will require them for entry to large venues from October 1st: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccine-passports-requir... The NHS is a fully devolved issue, with separate NHS organizations in Wales, England, Northern Ireland,…

This is very true. I personally find it mad that the UK is the nation with the highest covid infection rate in western europe, with ~30k new cases/day. Long covid is a real, debilitating condition and if anything is going to affect the young -- who are least vaccinated -- the most, thus creating a long-term disease burden and morbidity cost on both those individuals and the country as a whole. Ignoring the human cost…

the CDC recognizes long covid, https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/..., but not necessarily as a result of mild infections.

it is also worth noting that the CDC, so far, does not recognize vaccine-induced long haul syndrome as a real syndrome.

edit: re vaccinating the young, you need to pay special attn to the risks of myocarditis and pericarditis, which can potentially outweigh the benefits of the vaccine. vaccine advocates already made this mistake of ignoring vaccine risks with young women / GBS previously in the context of another vaccine and it would be a tragedy to needlessly maim the young with these new innovative vaccines.

edit: dear creeps who are downvoting me without a reason, please take note of another HN submission at https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-r...

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#203

Post by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS » Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 3:25 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #115

throwaway316943 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day 28 people die in the US from drunk driving crashes https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving 261 per day from excessive alcohol use https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-death... Alcohol consumption directly affects people who do not consume it in a multitude of ways from the monetary cost of increased demand on the health care system, police, prisons and damage to public property t…

Drunk driving is very illegal. If we could identify unvaccinated people who infected others and punish that with jail time, would you be happy about that?

Would you also jail the folks ho were vaccinated but still infected others?

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#204

Post by hervature » Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 3:25 PM UTC

howinteresting wrote: post #193

hervature wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about waiting for full FDA approval? I agree that your Facebook Mom groups are full of BS but why are PhD earners more hesitant than only high school educated [1]. [1] - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v...

The Pfizer vaccine has already received full FDA approval, and Moderna is expected to get it shortly.

Exactly, I'm just pointing out that there were (and still are in my opinion) valid scientific and rational thinking for being hesitant of getting the vaccine.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#205

Post by sudosysgen » Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

thepasswordis wrote: post #194

sudosysgen wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely and incontrovertibly bullshit that vaccines don't help unvaccinated people. Vaccines drastically reduce hospitalisation. That frees up medical resources for everyone, especially those who aren't vaccinated and those that need care. We are already seeing medical procedures get postponed and hospital staff being pushed at the breaking point. The help to your community of being vaccinated is simply huge.

Yeah, again this is a great talking point for those who are enjoying their newfound power, but unfortunately for them (and fortunately for the inhabitants of this country!) the numbers do not bare this out: https://www.dph.illinois.gov/covid19/hospitalization-utiliza... Do you know of a hospital system that’s overloaded in the way you are worried about? I’ve seen plenty of bloggers who talk about this, but they never…

What kind of argument is there to cite a single state's COVID ICU utilization as an argument?

First of all, that's not total ICU utilization, which is the metric that should interests you.

Illinois, the state you cherry-picked, has only 508 ICU beds remaining out of 3127. That's one doubling away from disaster.

Here's an example of people dying because they couldn't find an ICU bed : https://meaww.com/ray-demonia-cardiac-failure-dies-icu-beds-...

Right now the US is at the cusp of disaster with 78% nationwide ICU utilization. As we've seen some states are at functionally 100% utilization and turning away patients.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#206

Post by kuraudo » Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

libertine wrote: post #69

0-_-0 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to https://ourworldindata.org/ Israel is #4 in COVID cases right now (856.81/M) and #5 in vaccine doses per 100 people (163.74)

Well maybe vaccine doses per 100 people isn't the best benchmark, especially if they are already giving 3rd doses - it's way more important the share of full vaccination of the total population, because the goal is to get the imune system primed. The reality is that Israel only has 63% of their population fully vaccinated, even if they keep giving extra doses, a large slice is still not vaccinated (people under 59 ap…

Highly suspect: I heard that they count anyone without three jabs as "unvaccinated." that might not be israel and it might be two jabs, apologies on unreliability. I'm putting this out here because I hope someone can disprove or verify it.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#207

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

tchalla wrote: post #39

> "I've never liked the idea of saying to people you must show your papers or something to do what is just an everyday activity, but we were right to properly look at it. We regularly show papers for everyday activities - library card for reading books, ID for a hotel stay, driving license for driving a car, ID to pickup a parcel etc.

> We regularly show papers for everyday activities - library card for reading books, ID for a hotel stay, driving license for driving a car, ID to pickup a parcel etc.

This is a classic demonstration that "slippery slope" isn't a fallacy.

First you need a driving license. Privacy conscious people objected. You don't need to show your driving license to drive, was the response, only if you break traffic laws or get into an accident. There's no one using it to track everywhere you go or anything.

Then comes the vaccine passport. Privacy conscious people object. Now the response is, hey, you already have to show your driving license if you get pulled over for speeding, what's the difference? And you don't have to show your vaccine passport if you, um, never go outside again.

Meanwhile we now have ALPR cameras recording the location history of every vehicle on the roads. Because some slopes are actually slippery.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#208

Post by ericmay » Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #120

xphilter wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t another reason be to reduce cost? It’s expensive to treat covid patients and the vaccine is proven to reduce the incidents of hospitalization. But I’m willing to forgo all vaccine mandates, mask mandates, etc if we can all agree that unvaccinated have to pay for their own treatment or buy bespoke covid insurance.

As an unvaccinated (but protected by naturally-acquired immunity) I completely agree with this. As long as the same is true for car accident victims (except pedestrians), HIV patients (except those that got it via birth/rape), obese people, smokers, drinkers, skiers, ... All these are 100% voluntary activities that put undue burden on the medical system.

I think the difference is effort to get the vaccine is very close to 0 - it’s free, you can get one at Costco.

And what’s the benefit or not getting it? As much as I despise cars you can at least go do something arguably beneficial with them. I think we should have fewer though because they do cause unnecessary deaths. But what is gained by not having the vaccine? If I have a car I can do something beneficial. If you don’t get the vaccine you can transmit the disease or wind up in the hospital and for what reason? Do you, or society get much pleasure from skiing? Seems like it. There’s an entire industry. Will there be COVID-19 resorts and YouTube videos showing who can get the sickest or something?

We do deprioritize smokers and drinkers BTW on the transplant list.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#209

Post by kuraudo » Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

_Microft wrote: post #23

tinus_hn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can not accept the nanny state and let people decide for themselves over things that affect themselves. Who knows, if you afford people that kind of respect they might even believe that states ideas on whether getting vaccinated is good for them.

You mean I could think for myself? OK, here is my reasoning: I am in no position to make an informed decision on these vaccines and measures by myself, so I trust those who actually know what they are talking about.

I'm in your camp: the problem is the people we rely on as experts are said to be lying/wrong/stupid/evil/devils/.etc by the people against the positions they hold.

How do you fight that kind of thing?

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#210

Post by sudosysgen » Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #192

sudosysgen wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccinated people are less symptomatic because they have a lower viral load. Their infectivity window is lower. In the corresponding time frames, they have similar symptoms

If they had similar symptoms then there would be no point to the vaccination at all because it’s symptoms why people get hospitalized. By now that’s even become the main argument for vaccinations: Less hospitalizations due to less severe symptoms. While all the talk about “herd immunity”, the original most pushed reason for mass vaccinations, has turned out to be not realistic.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Whether you're unvaccinated or vaccinated, you are asymptomatic during the times you're most infectious. By the time you develop symptoms you're statistically not that likely to infect people if you're unvaccinated. If you were vaccinated, you would have cleared the infection already.

And in vaccinated people even that infectious phase is lower.